{"id":1874,"date":"2017-08-24T12:22:09","date_gmt":"2017-08-24T11:22:09","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/sites.manchester.ac.uk\/religion-law-and-the-constitution\/?p=1874"},"modified":"2025-11-26T17:10:36","modified_gmt":"2025-11-26T17:10:36","slug":"zerbanoo-and-mark-gifford","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/sites.manchester.ac.uk\/religion-law-and-the-constitution\/2017\/08\/24\/zerbanoo-and-mark-gifford\/","title":{"rendered":"Zerbanoo and Mark Gifford"},"content":{"rendered":"

[et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ admin_label=”section” fullwidth=”on” next_background_color=”#000000″ global_module=”322″][et_pb_fullwidth_menu global_parent=”322″ _builder_version=”3.17.6″ menu_id=”8″ submenu_direction=”downwards” fullwidth_menu=”off” background_layout=”dark” module_class=”main-navigation” \/][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ fullwidth=”off” specialty=”on” prev_background_color=”#000000″ next_background_color=”#1d1d1d”][et_pb_column type=”2_3″ specialty_columns=”2″][et_pb_row_inner locked=”off”][et_pb_column_inner type=”4_4″ saved_specialty_column_type=”2_3″][et_pb_post_title _builder_version=”3.17.6″ featured_placement=”above” locked=”on” parent_locked=”off” date_format=”j M Y” \/][et_pb_text _builder_version=”3.17.6″ background_layout=”light” parent_locked=”off”]<\/p>\n

We\u2019ve talked a little bit about Zoroastrianism, the second question, and I know that we talked about that partly as well, but why did you either choose, or choose to remain in the faith tradition that you described?<\/h2>\n

ZG – I couldn\u2019t help myself. I just am a Zoroastrian. It\u2019s in my DNA, my whole being, and how I relate to the world. My Zoroastrian faith is my foundation and helps me make sense of life. Do you think anything else Mark?<\/p>\n

MG – Well, it\u2019s a personal question for you.<\/p>\n

ZG – I have Mark, my interfaith minister son, to guide me in other religions. But I see that all religions are really the same, it\u2019s all about being kind. It all boils down to kindness and for us Zoroastrians enjoying life. That was another thing I didn\u2019t say about Zoroastrianism which appeals to me so much, it\u2019s a religion about cherishing life. Nothing to excess, everything in moderation, but you\u2019re here to be joyful. You\u2019re here to have a good life and to give others a good life. I like that, I don\u2019t value the idea of cutting yourself off from the world and just meditating for self-realisation. I enjoy participating in life the world for the better and helping to make the world a better place for everyone.<\/p>\n

Fantastic. Okay, so moving on to questions specifically about human rights. Do you think that the UK is an equal and tolerant society, particularly in relation to religion and belief?<\/h2>\n

(ZG and MG exchange glances)<\/p>\n

MG – Say what you think<\/p>\n

ZG – Yes, I do. I think it\u2019s over tolerant.<\/p>\n

Okay<\/h2>\n

(everybody laughs)<\/p>\n

ZG – As I said to you before, what is missing, in Britain, is a lack of curiosity which is so important, and the willingness to engage. You\u2019re allowed, as consenting adults, to do whatever you want to do behind closed doors, but there isn\u2019t that sort of joyfulness, of seeing what the connections are and what our shared heritage is. That\u2019s what I\u2019m interested in. We share much more than divides us, and yet we look at what divides us all the time.<\/p>\n

MG – Do you mean that you think as a society we live too separately from each other?<\/p>\n

ZG – Yes, I think so, what do you think?<\/p>\n

MG – What was the question again Helen?<\/p>\n

Do you think basically that the UK is tolerant, 1) generally but 2) specifically in terms of religion and belief?<\/h2>\n

MG – One of the problems is that the UK is one of the most extreme examples in the world of a society that has become non-religious. There are only a few other European countries who could compete with us on that level. And so, people who appreciate faith, for whom faith is a very positive thing, they don\u2019t have much of a voice in society, or they\u2019re not generally appreciated. And so, I think that they have a massive involvement in civil society people like that, and they positively affect civil society, very strongly, but in terms of like a public discourse, or the way that the culture thinks, they\u2019re marginalised. So, in a way the kind of work that we do at the ASHA Centre, in a way all that you can do is get on with what you believe in, and try and do the best you can. And ASHA is an example of that.<\/p>\n

ZG – Having been in politics, I found it extraordinary in Blair\u2019s time, because I knew Blair was religious, that he could say, we don\u2019t do religion.<\/p>\n

MG – He didn\u2019t say that! It was Alistair Campbell who said that, when Blair wanted to talk about God.<\/p>\n

Okay, that moves quite nicely onto the next question, which is, how easy is it for you personally to live in accordance with your particular faith convictions?<\/h2>\n

ZG – In Britain?<\/p>\n

In Britain.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Oh, very easy. Extremely easy. We have our Zoroastrian centre, if we want to go to it. Every year the young Zoroastrians come to the ASHA Centre, as a group. We have many young, different religious groups come to ASHA but when the young Zoros come, it\u2019s great fun they\u2019re full of life. One thing I find about them is how competitive and taking life on they are. It\u2019s a real joy to have them here.<\/p>\n

Are there any, practical problems here? Things that just aren\u2019t geared up?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Oh absolutely! I mean we Zoroastrians believe in the Tower of Silence<\/p>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

Yes, that was what I was thinking of…..<\/h2>\n

ZG – Yes, that\u2019s going to be absolutely not possible. I mean everybody goes \u2018oooh how awful!\u2019 but it\u2019s ecological. I want my body to go to the Tower of Silence in Mumbai. I know they won\u2019t pay for it, when it comes to it when I\u2019m gone…<\/p>\n

MG – Who\u2019s they?<\/p>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

ZG – Whoever is after me…..But I think it\u2019s the most ecological way to dispose of the dead. That what\u2019s so wonderful is that you come into the world naked and you leave naked. If you haven\u2019t been charitable in life, on death you have to be charitable at least to the birds of prey. So charity for us is very important. It makes me very proud that in India they say Parsi thy name is charity. My community\u2019s known for being big hearted. You can\u2019t take anything with you. And how nice to be even useful on death. You only take with you what you have given away.<\/p>\n

I agree, I think it\u2019s one of the really appealing things about Zoroastrianism.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Very clean<\/p>\n

Yes and somehow the idea of being taken by the birds rather than just..<\/h2>\n

MG – The worms<\/p>\n

Cremated or something….well, at least worms there\u2019s something in it, but the crematorium is……nothing. It\u2019s too sterile even to fertilise plants.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Is it?<\/p>\n

Yes<\/h2>\n

MG – Yes – ash<\/p>\n

ZG – What the ash is too sterile is it?<\/p>\n

They are…..They are absolutely useful for nothing. And people sometimes want to tip them…..and I mean obviously I don\u2019t say anything as a vicar when people are saying that, you just say, yes of course if that comforts you, but yeah they actually damage your rose bushes rather than help.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Yes, that\u2019s what I also thought. That if you want to put the ash anywhere you should put into water that is moving. It is not very good for the earth.<\/p>\n

It is…..but socially and culturally it\u2019s what people often do here now.<\/h2>\n

ZG – You know I believe that\u2019s a lovely part of our religion is its insistence on cleanliness and ecology. Our religion places emphasis putting chaos into order. Visual order is very much a part of me. I like everything to be in its place, clean, tidy and beautiful.<\/p>\n

Okay, that\u2019s brilliant. Is there anything you\u2019d like to add to that? Or are you happy…?<\/h2>\n

MG – No, no, that\u2019s fine. I\u2019m still thinking about the last question!<\/p>\n

Well, I mean obviously…..<\/h2>\n

ZG – That\u2019s an important question in England how…I mean you must know through the interfaith…does anybody say anything about how they feel?<\/p>\n

MG – Sure.<\/p>\n

ZG – I mean, you\u2019re asking me as an individual. It\u2019s my own personality, I can\u2019t see anybody stopping me doing anything. So, I mean you know, other people might have experienced. I have experienced a lot of racial prejudice in politics. The unpleasantness of racism. But now I don\u2019t because I\u2019m not in the limelight but I\u2019m sure that other people….<\/p>\n

MG – But you weren\u2019t prevented from practising your faith in any way?<\/p>\n

ZG – No.<\/p>\n

MG – That\u2019s the good thing about Britain.<\/p>\n

ZG – No I wasn\u2019t, not all.<\/p>\n

How does your religion regard human rights, and how has it contributed to or influenced the world\u2019s understanding of human rights?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Well, I told you about the Zoroastrian kingCyrus the Great. He\u2019s considered the first ruler to practice human rights.<\/p>\n

MG – Woah, it\u2019s a big question! The ancient Zoroastrian scriptures are very interesting, they\u2019re one of the earliest pieces of literature that we still have……they\u2019re from the Bronze Age and they talk about the conscience of each man and woman, and that religious belief should be pursued as a result of each man and woman considering in their conscience what they believe to be the right thing. So, even from the really earliest period it looks as though there\u2019s an emphasis on autonomy but also personal responsibility, and that has kind of percolated down through the centuries in Zoroastrianism. So there\u2019s always been, an emphasis on people doing the right thing out of their own conviction.<\/p>\n

ZG – I missed that. It\u2019s very important, you have decided for yourself and our prophet Zoroaster did say man and woman too. It wasn\u2019t just man, he always spoke about the woman. Which is very interesting<\/p>\n

MG – A Bronze Age Iranian pacifist (query whether word on the tape is \u2018pacifist\u2019)….that\u2019s quite impressive<\/p>\n

ZG – Truly impressive, Zoroaster was an early feminist, he always spoke about women\u2019s equality…..he had three daughters and I think that\u2019s really interesting. And that puts a big responsibility on us.<\/p>\n

And it\u2019s interestingly tied back to what you were saying about the idea of judgement and there being no kind of….<\/h2>\n

ZG – Escape<\/p>\n

Escape yes, you carry with you what you have done for good or for ill.<\/h2>\n

ZG – That\u2019s so isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

MG – Mmmm<\/p>\n

ZG – And that\u2019s like Hinduism as well. I couldn\u2019t quite explain the subtleties between….it\u2019s very easy to explain the influence Zoroastrianism has had on Christianity, Judaism and Islam, even the five prayers was a Zoroastrian thing, Muslims do it. But I couldn\u2019t really explain the subtleties of the influence of Hinduism and the influence of Hinduism on us. Which you, you\u2019re better at.<\/p>\n

MG – Is that of interest to you?<\/p>\n

And it\u2019s of interest generally, really.<\/h2>\n

MG-Sure, well, in a nutshell, the ancient Iranians and the ancient Indians were originally one people. And the language of the scriptures of the two religions, the most ancient ones are in languages that are almost completely identical. It\u2019s like two regional dialects of the same language and that represents, or illustrates the fact that there\u2019s massive cultural connections between the two people.<\/p>\n

ZG – What\u2019s the language?<\/p>\n

MG – Well, its Vedic Sanskrit, the most ancient form of Sanskrit and Gartgavesta which area almost identical<\/p>\n

ZG – Mark had to learn Sanskrit at SOAS for his MA.<\/p>\n

MG – The veneration of fire, the veneration of cattle, but also much more important philosophical concepts, especially this idea of \u2018ASHA\u2019 which in the Vedas is called \u2018rita\u2019 which is the idea that there\u2019s this force in the universe which underpins everything, which is power of light, truth, beauty, goodness and which is opposed to the negative, destructive quality, it\u2019s called drooge, in Arvesten and that\u2019s darkness, chaos, disorder, pain, suffering, those sorts of things and in South Asia that concept developed later on into the idea of daherma which is a concept which exists in all the South Asian faiths of what is right. So there\u2019s this ancient connection between Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and then very interestingly, Zoroastrianism had this impact on the Western religions, so it\u2019s actually like a bridge between Western and Eastern religions, so that\u2019s it in a nutshell.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s fascinating. I\u2019m disciplining myself to keep on with the questions about law rather than asking too many theological questions. Do you think the way in which human rights apply to everyone equally, has been a good or a bad thing for UK society?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Sorry, you\u2019ll have to explain that, sorry<\/p>\n

Well, in some jurisdictions the level of rights given to citizens depend on the status they have legally, whereas here, human rights are, generally speaking, human rights, do you think that\u2019s been a good or a bad thing? And also the way in which courts have interpreted and applied human rights, particularly since the passage of the Human Rights Act. Has that been a positive development or a negative?<\/h2>\n

MG – Undoubtedly positive.<\/p>\n

ZG – Who would say it was anything but positive?<\/p>\n

The Daily Mail?<\/h2>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

ZG – I see!<\/p>\n

MG – It\u2019s a shame Adrian, a director at the ASHA Centre, isn\u2019t here, there\u2019s a wonderful idea from Rudolph Steiner, and I don\u2019t want to mangle it. Steiner said that, it\u2019s the ideas from the French Revolution of egality, liberty and fraternity, and they each apply best in different spheres of human activity. So, egality, equality is best in the legal sphere, where all men are equal before the law. Liberty is best in the spiritual or artistic sphere, where people are inwardly free to do whatever they need to do to express their individual gifts, not necessarily equal to each other and fraternity applies in the economic sphere, so the only true basis of a successful economic at least is when people relate to each other out of a sense of brotherhood. And so, according to that idea, equality before the law is absolutely essential.<\/p>\n

Thank you, fantastic. Are there ways in which Zoroastrians have a practical influence on human rights in contemporary Britain? Do they have any groups which campaign on particular issues?<\/h2>\n

MG – Yes and so the government is supposed to consult these committees you know, when they want to introduce legislation which effects faith communities or whatever. I can\u2019t think of anything else apart from that.<\/p>\n

And presumably, individuals of the faith who are political active?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Oh absolutely<\/p>\n

MG – So, who would they be Mum? Your good self, at least in the past if not now.<\/p>\n

ZG – They are. The thing about Zoroastrians is that they do join committees and are actively involved in the interfaith communities.<\/p>\n

MG – You know historically, the first three non-white MPs in the UK were all Zoroastrians<\/p>\n

ZG – I can brief you on all of them because I\u2019ve researched and written about all of these extraordinary men. The first one was Dadabhai Naoroji a Liberal Democrat, the second was a Sir Mancherjee Bhownagree a Conservative and the third one was Shapurji Saklatvala, a Labour MP and then, a Communist. It\u2019s very interesting that they crossed the political spectrum and where all motivated by the Zoroastrian concept of justice.<\/p>\n

MG – But in terms of human rights the first one in particular….<\/p>\n

ZG – The first one Dadabhai Naoroji was inspirational. He was the son of a Dastoor, a Zoroastrian priest, and I believe that a had a huge influence on him. Even though his father died when he was young and he was brought up by his widowed mother he was always very religious. To be a Zoroastrians priest you have to be born into a priestly family. That did have an impact on his politics, the sense that one is in this world to do good.<\/p>\n

ZG – He became an MP in the 1892 for the constituency of Finsbury Central.<\/p>\n

MG – But the main purpose for him in becoming an MP, he came over from India, was to advocate for the Home Rule movement. Human rights for Indians.<\/p>\n

ZG – Yes, Human rights for 250 million Indians that needed representation in Parliament.<\/p>\n

MG – He was a major part of the….what do you call the independence movement?<\/p>\n

ZG – One of Dadabhai Naoroji great achievement was to research and show how the British Empire was draining India of it\u2019s resources. He wrote the book \u2018Poverty and Un-British Rule in India which did have an impact. It alerted people to an injustice.
Dadabhai Naoroji was very high minded individual. When he worked in a firm in Manchester, he resigned because he didn\u2019t approve of their dealings in opium with China.<\/p>\n

MG – Mmmm, and he was a great inspiration for Gandhi. He was one my Gandhi hero\u2019s.<\/p>\n

ZG – He was seen as the father of the Indian independence movement. He and Thomas Clarkson the outstanding Englishman, who was instrumental in ensuring the success of the anti-slave movement and who I also wrote about were my two heroes. They\u2019re both sons of priests, so they both had faith for as base as how they lived their lives and I think that\u2019s very important. We forget that. And both their fathers died when they were very young, they were brought up by their mothers and they both had huge respect for the feminine principle and equality of women.<\/p>\n

That is fascinating. Do you think that generally speaking, human rights are fairly well respected in practise by government bodies and emanations of the State in Great Britain?<\/h2>\n

MG – (laughter) They think they do. What do you think Mum?<\/p>\n

ZG – The majority of British people these days, I am completely alienated from politics and I have complete contempt for what\u2019s going on. I\u2019m sorry, I was very, very involved with it and I really believed that you could change the system through politics. But now I believe that you only change the world for the better by changing yourself and changing the people around you, by your good example.<\/p>\n

MG – Brilliant.<\/p>\n

ZG – I just….my own personal experience has been so unpleasant that you could only do it by your own example. You can\u2019t rely on statutory bodies, because they can always twist things to suit themselves.<\/p>\n

Yes. Do you think that the State interferes too much or not enough in the lives of individuals and groups? 1) in a general sense and 2) where religious matters are concerned?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Who do they interfere with? Do they interfere with Muslims?<\/p>\n

MG – (laughter) I don\u2019t think so. This is you know, the big debate especially in America, and somehow in Europe we\u2019re starting to ask ourselves the same question for some reason. But it seems to be an extreme vision of society where the government is considered only an interference, and the positive things we can achieve together through government are dismissed. So, you know, Britain\u2019s a wonderful example of how the State in the first part of the twentieth century and the late nineteenth century massively improved the welfare of the British people. It took people out of poverty, that\u2019s my view, what do you think?<\/p>\n

ZG – Well, my view was, when I was young that legislation was extremely important, but as I\u2019ve got older I think that writing, communication, speaking has a huge influence, you don\u2019t know how much influence you have, because you never know the impact you have when somebody is listening to you, or in an audience when you\u2019re talking. But we should all be balanced, we should all be there, legislation should be the foundation of communications and the way you behave, and it all has to be balanced properly. And it can\u2019t be legislation and you just do what you want and when you\u2019re caught …..<\/p>\n

MG – The way the government operates, it arises out of the culture of the day. It\u2019s not separate from the minds and hearts of all the people who live in the country.<\/p>\n

ZG – The other thing is that we expect politicians to be leaders and to encourage us to do great things, but what happens is that politicians actually follow. They listen to focus groups because they want votes, so they\u2019re actually listening to the common denominator which is often rather unattractive. They\u2019re not listening to great souls who challenge the way we behave and are visionaries. That\u2019s a shame. If you only pander to the low common denominator, it makes for mediocrity. It doesn\u2019t make for magnificence.<\/p>\n

MG – May I say something? It\u2019s something that I feel quite strongly about, and it\u2019s one of the reasons that I feel proud to be British. One of the reasons….what I understand to be and this is my own understanding of British social history, you know, it may not be perfect. But what I understand is that there were magnificent strides forward in personal liberty, personal freedom and collective wellbeing of society in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries; it was largely brought about by certain government legislation and that was reflection of what was going on in the minds and hearts of the British people. And I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a coincidence that amongst the population of Britain there was a keen connection to Christianity. Lots of people had a rich interior life, inspired by collective worship and their own awareness of Scripture and that played its way out in government legislation eventually. What happened in the Empire is a completely different story because that was like adventurers going off around the world, who had a different modus operandi.
One of the reasons that we all feel…..I think a lot of people in Britain nowadays feels frustrated about the direction of the country. My analysis of it is that there is generally an impoverishment of the inner lives of people. And that ultimately expresses itself in the very mundane way that the government governs. And you know, the way we understand human rights and our relationship to other countries and all sorts of things. So, for me, the root of all these problems is this impoverishment and the answer to it is somehow to regenerate that inner inspiration in people. I wouldn\u2019t, I\u2019m suggesting that there\u2019s any simple answer to that, like everybody\u2019s suddenly just got to go to church on Sunday, it\u2019s much more integral and comprehensive answer is required. But that inner spirituality is the root of it. That\u2019s one of the ideas that informs the work that we do at the ASHA Centre. We\u2019re not forcing and particular philosophical ideas on people, people are free but we are trying to say that there is an inner life that needs to be cultivated for people to experience themselves, society and their relationship to the Earth in as good a way as it can be, in a full, happy way, that spreads happiness and peace in the world.<\/p>\n

ZG – Absolutely, what Mark said is fascinating and it makes me think that when I researched the life of Thomas Clarkson and campaign against the slave trade. Antislavery came from people that were Christian. It was the enlightened Christians that really ignited the anti-slave movement. It became the major political campaign of the period. It was through the churches and the Quakers that people\u2019s minds were changed and slavery condemned. And I can\u2019t…I always marvel…..when we did the 200th celebrations I spoke at Manchester cathedral and I said what I found extraordinary was that \u00be of the people in Manchester signed a petition against slavery and I said that with all the modern technology I don\u2019t think that I could get two thirds of Manchester to sign for anything. How extraordinary that Thomas Clackson went on horseback and persuaded so many people to sign a petition against slavery. I don\u2019t think that we could do it now. I would like to stop modern slavery and I know that we only need 10 billion pounds and every slave could be released and educated and given a livelihood. I don\u2019t know if we have that kind of energy and feeling that we can make…turn something evil into good.<\/p>\n

When do you think that the State should interfere in the sense of restrict people when they are expressing or putting into practise religious or theological convictions and actions and lifestyle choices?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Well this is happening now at the Home Office, isn\u2019t it? Very apt question, it\u2019s what Theresa May is doing isn\u2019t she?<\/p>\n

MG – What\u2019s she\u2019s doing?<\/p>\n

ZG – Well, she\u2019s saying……to curb Muslim priests from going around and agitating people….she thinks they are<\/p>\n

MG – Where\u2019s the line?<\/p>\n

ZG – Where\u2019s the line? I don\u2019t know. Where is the line? Well Mark knows more about….well, Islam is the question really. I mean Islam is what\u2019s happening…<\/p>\n

And I suppose also in relation to vulnerable people and children and education, that\u2019s a sort of….and not just with Islam…..I mean how far is it reasonable for parents to make decisions on behalf of their children?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Oh I see<\/p>\n

Well, that\u2019s just one possible other example as well as freedom of expression and Imams and how far is too far in that direction.<\/h2>\n

MG – Phew, that\u2019s a really difficult question. My, what I always have at the back of my mind is that we to appreciate how a conviction arising out of faith, is not just like a normal intellectual conviction, if you believe that you have to do something or think something because God requires you to do that. It\u2019s of a different…it\u2019s like a different category from just a normal intellectual conviction and so, you sort to need to…..so a society or a government will need to respond accordingly. Now what the answer is in every single situation now…..ooof I\u2019m not sure. It\u2019s a sort of complicated question……<\/p>\n

ZG – Ask the Daily Mail….it would solve the problems of everybody. One of the things about Zoroastrians, and why the Zoroastrian known as Parsis (people from Persia) were so successful in India, was they adapted and we adapted when we came to England. We dress in Western clothes, we speak English and we try and integrate ourselves. It\u2019s very important to adapt, I don\u2019t think we give enough emphasis on that. And it\u2019s nothing to do with the Daily Mail idea that you\u2019re a guest. I don\u2019t see myself as a guest I see myself as very British and taking great responsibility and wanting to stand for Parliament and all the rest of it…..so I see myself taking part……but I also think that it\u2019s important to learn the language to sort of look as if we\u2019re part of it. Not sort of stick out all the time. You can do what you want again behind closed doors in Britain (laughter) if you want to dress up in fancy dress clothes you can…… but somehow you need to be able to speak English, it\u2019s very important because you need to be able to converse and communicate. I understand in America everybody has to learn English, and that brought them together, that\u2019s quite important, if you have something that is common to everybody, language, communications is so important.<\/p>\n

MG – Can I say something else about this line, about where the government can and should intervene against religious convictions of others? I\u2019m just trying to think about it off the top of my head. There\u2019s a difference when it comes to a person\u2019s family. Sometimes in our culture we don\u2019t quite appreciate the importance of the inviolability of the connection between parent and child. And so I would….personally in other cultures I\u2019m aware….so for example in Islam there\u2019s a tradition of Mohammed which say that the mother should never be separated….sorry, a child should never be separated from the mother. In England, we have the idea that if we believe a parent might be abusing a child. There\u2019s this idea that the child should never be separated from the parent whereas in the current UK set up we have the idea that if there\u2019s even a potential risk to the child, the child should be separated from the parent. And so, as we said before these are all very complicated questions and you can come to different answers from a quite sincere perspective, but, we should have more humility about how other people choose to live their lives and have more reticence about intervening in other people\u2019s lives.<\/p>\n

I think you\u2019re right, I think it is hugely complicated. It is heart-breaking when you see children who have been appallingly abused by their own mother.<\/h2>\n

MG – It\u2019s not an amazing idea, it\u2019s simply that when you intervene in a situation you are accepting responsibility for that situation. If you don\u2019t intervene, it wasn\u2019t necessarily your responsibility in the first place to do something about it, even if you could have done.<\/p>\n

I mean it\u2019s an idea which resonates very well with the way that the Common Law operates.<\/h2>\n

MG – Right. Yeah, sure, so if someone\u2019s hanging off a cliff it\u2019s not your responsibility to help<\/p>\n

Exactly, yeah in this jurisdiction, very different from Europe where it is probably your problem, but here<\/h2>\n

MG – But this as you said, the Wisdom of Solomon. Who knows what God requires of us?<\/p>\n

Yes, you\u2019re right. If you start trying to rescue somebody and you push them off, then it becomes your responsibility. That\u2019s a fascinating take on it, I\u2019d not thought of looking at it that way before really.<\/h2>\n

MG – I suppose that all I\u2019m saying is that we need to be aware of the paradigms motivating our assessment of a situation. So in that situation of the mother and the child, for us, separating the child from the mother is not a theological issue……whereas for a Muslim who believes in what the prophet it is….I think that\u2019s what I\u2019m saying….<\/p>\n

ZG – That\u2019s very interesting.<\/p>\n

Do you think that living in a Parliamentary democracy, because obviously, there are different understandings of democracy, makes it easier or harder to live in accordance with your faith or your convictions? And, is there any other form of government which you would regard as preferable?<\/h2>\n

ZG – To democracy?<\/p>\n

MG – Was it Plato who said we should be led by 12 wise men? I think that would be great.<\/p>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

ZG – What about 12 wise women. I suppose democracy is the best system we\u2019ve come up with, but it can lead to politicians pandering to unhealthy prejudice. And also, means that people don\u2019t have a longer foresight into things because it\u2019s almost more temporary because you have to always get votes. I remember Mrs Indira Gandhi saying to me just before she died…She said to me that everybody goes into politics with good intentions and they end up just wanting to win votes, win elections. And it\u2019s very evident to me, that most people go into politics with good intentions but later think oh well, I need to fundraise, or I\u2019ll need that to carry favour for more votes, so the purity of the intent is blurred. Which maybe if you don\u2019t have democracy and you just have a good person…..but where are the good people?<\/p>\n

Given that we do live in a democratic society, does your faith mean that you feel that you have a personal responsibility to vote and participate?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Oh G-d yes! Don\u2019t you? Well, I mean I did participate, because I felt it was very important.<\/p>\n

MG – But why was that Zoroastrianism?<\/p>\n

ZG – Oh, simply because you\u2019re able to change anything<\/p>\n

MG – Yeah<\/p>\n

ZG – Because you\u2019re able to change the world by your effort and vision. When a teenager I used to work as a volunteer for the homeless and set up the charity Shelter their first shops. I also set up volunteering groups in London in order to transform the way people related treated the homeless. If people haven\u2019t got a home at all it is an indictment on all of us. One of the reasons there wasn\u2019t revolution in Britain was that people had their little home and their little plot of land, however small it was. They had something that was theirs and that\u2019s very important. People have good accommodation, that it\u2019s the basis of a lot of contentment. You know I\u2019ve seen young children<\/p>\n

MG – So you\u2019re like a stakeholder in society?<\/p>\n

ZG – I\u2019ve seen young children that you know live in hostels and are continuously moved on they never get that sort of grounding, where there\u2019s that security and comfort. I\u2019ve always felt very strongly that I have to participate. I\u2019m as responsible as anybody else and if there\u2019s inequality in the world it\u2019s just as much my fault as anybody else\u2019s. I need to do something about it to make the world a kinder and more just place for everyone.<\/p>\n

MG – And you could say that comes directly from Zoroastrianism?<\/p>\n

ZG – Oh absolutely, the feeling that you have to be in the world arena.<\/p>\n

MG – That life is not to be renounced. It\u2019s not learnt that it\u2019s an illusion, it\u2019s something that you have to engage with. The teaching is that you are part of a spiritual battle and that man has to join the side of light, and thereby support God\u2019s work……and he does that by helping other people.<\/p>\n

ZG – Absolutely<\/p>\n

MG – That\u2019s how spiritual progress is made<\/p>\n

ZG – I certainly don\u2019t believe that life\u2019s an illusion, life\u2019s a great reality. We do have to justify ourselves and why you are here. You can\u2019t just say, I didn\u2019t want to interfere, and I wanted to become enlightened myself, you have to do more than that. You have to help<\/p>\n

MG – So Zoroastrians in India, they\u2019ve had a very strong experience of being able to impact that society positively.<\/p>\n

ZG – That\u2019s what I said about, the Hindus allowed us to<\/p>\n

MG – Right. After the centuries of oppression in Iran, they were in a situation in India where Zoroastrians were free and could express their talents and abilities. So there was a great flowering of Parsi accomplishment, and so India Zoroastrians have a great sense that they can do things, that they can impact society in a positive way. I\u2019m sure that\u2019s a part of….<\/p>\n

ZG – I\u2019m sure…..one of the things that the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams spoke about during his visit to the Zoroastrian Centre was the idea that when a community is held back and then suddenly allowed to express yourselves, there is a great flourishing.<\/p>\n

MG – Energy<\/p>\n

ZG – There\u2019s great energy and great goodness comes out of it. You\u2019re free. That certainly happened with the Irani Zoroastrians who came to India in the early 20th century for religious freedom and a better life. They came because they believed that they wouldn\u2019t be religiously persecuted under the British Empire, and they could practise their faith, which they couldn\u2019t do openly in Iran. They did not have to hide their religious faiths they flourished and they\u2019ve done very well, in industry, in law, in business, in everything.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s interesting. So indirectly, the sort of British legal system was of some benefit then.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Absolutely, absolutely, it allowed them religious tolerance, which they didn\u2019t have in the Middle East.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s an irony and a fascination in that concept on so many levels really. On the one hand the British having gone and interfered somewhere else but there\u2019s some sort of redemptive effect at least.<\/h2>\n

MG – Well, Indian had been a refuge for Zoroastrians before the British arrived.<\/p>\n

Yes, because I was thinking that….I hadn\u2019t realized that there was that connection as well<\/h2>\n

ZG – I always feel that there\u2019s a big connection between Britain and India anyway. Britain is very hierarchical and Indian society is very much in the caste system and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s just disappeared.<\/p>\n

MG – There was a meeting minds.<\/p>\n

ZG – Yes, there was an understanding that there\u2019s a hierarchy. And the other thing that I didn\u2019t tell you about Zoroastrian influence was the hierarchy of angels. Because people didn\u2019t believe in angels \u2018til Zoroaster came…..the whole concept of angels….<\/p>\n

MG – Sure, sure (laughs) you\u2019re putting it at its highest mum! Nobody believed in angels before Zoroaster.<\/p>\n

ZG – Yeah well, they did the hierarchy of angels, didn\u2019t they?<\/p>\n

MG – Yeah, it\u2019s one of the ways I think in which Iranian religion impacted….<\/p>\n

ZG – So I mean that\u2019s important because there is a huge revival of the idea of angels and higher beings helping.<\/p>\n

Parliament, generally has the final say here in still in making or changing British law? Should there be limits in the way that Parliament can change the law and should judges have power to strike down laws?<\/h2>\n

MG – Oh….that\u2019s a question for a lawyer.<\/p>\n

Well, that\u2019s a perfectly legitimate answer, and just to pass on that one if you\u2019d like to.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Well, Mark you have qualified as a lawyer, even the courts can be…..even with a court judgement like the Chagos Islanders case, every time they win the government has the money to appeal, it makes a bit of a joke of justice. I mean you just think oh well, dear me….The point is that everything can be abused and misused, every system.<\/p>\n

MG – And the system has to be flexible enough to deal with changed circumstances. So, I suppose in America one of the problems that they\u2019re seeing is that they\u2019ve kind of got a gridlock-because of what they 250 years ago, or whatever it was were trying to establish, in those circumstance. So, everything\u2019s got to keep any development mechanism that is inherently flexible over the centuries, things need to be destroyed and renewed. It\u2019s good enough for the time being, shall we say that? And the judges yes, they should be able to strike down law. Sometimes the legislature gets it, wrong don\u2019t they? They misinterpret their own powers and step over the line, step over the mark, exceed them<\/p>\n

Does your understanding of democracy as the will of the majority present problems for minority groups in society? And do you think our democracy is inclusive of all groups and citizens, or is it in practise here difficult for some people in our society to participate?<\/h2>\n

ZG – If you want to participate in Britain you can though procedures that make it difficult. I\u2019ve often asked would I have gone back into politics with the hindsight of what I experienced and I often think, I wouldn\u2019t do it again. I wouldn\u2019t be bothered. I wouldn\u2019t want to go through all that agony again. Having said that it was an important learning experience, it opened up whole new worlds for me, connections and understanding the how the system works. It was very important that period of my life. Looking back, I was courageous and did help open up the system for minorities and especially for women.<\/p>\n

Interestingly I didn\u2019t understand how the system really operated, and because I didn\u2019t understand what was going on I thought I was capable of doing anything. I was so naive. I was able to do what I wanted to do because I just put my foot down. I said that I\u2019ve been elected and this is the will of the people through me and you\u2019re going to do it and the officers did it. There were certain situations where I was lucky and things happened so I dissolved committees that I took over as chair and insisted that half the committee was women, because I had the legal power to do it, nobody had ever thought of doing it before. But when I initially asked everybody on the committee to invite more women and ethnic minorities. They said no, the women didn\u2019t have the right C.V.s and it wasn\u2019t appropriate. They fobbed me off so I just dissolved the committee, took the chair\u2019s action and then co-opted women onto the committee. I don\u2019t think that I could do that now, I was able to do that because I was young, na\u00efve, very energetic and a little defiant. I just thought there was nothing that could stop me, so sometimes having people who don\u2019t understand the system can be interesting.<\/p>\n

You have to have people who don\u2019t understand how stifling power is. I didn\u2019t understand then, now I understand what it\u2019s all about. I understand committees are there to talk about problems but seldom to action solutions. It\u2019s not there for people like me who just see solutions and don\u2019t understand why nothing changes.<\/p>\n

MG – Whose interest does it serve to stop solutions?<\/p>\n

ZG – The people who want the status quo.<\/p>\n

MG – And who are they?<\/p>\n

ZG – The people in power. The people in power don\u2019t want anything changed, it doesn\u2019t suit them to change things. They will always have the token person on board, they will always make you feel that the system is open and you can get elected, which of course you can. You can get elected, you sort of can do anything which is true, but until you have a third of a committee, or a third of the Parliament, you don\u2019t change the mindset. It\u2019s very difficult, you\u2019ve got to change the mindset and therefore you\u2019ve got to…….. I think what happened in my time, the early 80s, was a many women who when they reached positions of power, were so tired by the time they got there that they didn\u2019t have the energy to take on the system. They just sort of rolled over and accepted it and became sort of quasi-male in their thinking and behaviour, and that was the difficulty.<\/p>\n

MG – Do you think that they might just have been forerunners of something that might succeed or come to fruition later on?<\/p>\n

ZG – If you talk to young women these days, they don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking about, they have no concept of what it was like. Because, it is possible now and see they people in positions of power and role models and all the rest of it. I mean it\u2019s not something wonderful, you can do anything, sort of thing. I mean when you see a Muslim woman who\u2019s a major pilot for the United Arab Emirates you think blimey, you know. But it was so different in my time. It was so difficult and so different……you had to, in a sense, play the game. And I always used to say that you had to, you know, sort of climb the walls of Jericho, get inside and educate and enlighten the Philistines……you couldn\u2019t just walk around the walls and scream and shout. You know, the walls wouldn\u2019t fall down. But I\u2019m now with the trumpeters to go around the wall, I\u2019ve changed.<\/p>\n

MG – Can I ask you something mum?<\/p>\n

ZG – Yes.<\/p>\n

MG – I have a thought in my head, which is about, I want to ask you about how you think the system could be changed so that is supports solutions rather than blocking them. So, what I have in my head is, so for example in the debate in Scotland, everybody was very, very passionate about it, obviously because it arouses nationalistic feelings. And also because everybody\u2019s vote made a difference. And so, what I have in my head is that our voting system and the way we have constituencies means that most people\u2019s vote doesn\u2019t matter. I\u2019ve never voted for a party that actually won anything, ever…..<\/p>\n

ZG – Well, I mean obviously, nobody campaigned properly for the PR vote.<\/p>\n

MG – Do you think that would make a difference if there was a different voting system?<\/p>\n

ZG – Absolutely……the voting system is very important…..the voting system….nobody, during the PR vote for example, there was no funding for somebody to go round to the minority communities and say to them….do you know what a difference it would make if you vote really counted? So, if you are a minority it would have made a big difference, and they didn\u2019t vote for PR, people didn\u2019t even go out and vote. People didn\u2019t even go out and vote because who was bothered? Nobody actually really wanted to change it. And the PR vote obviously does help and it helped me. I became chair of the Community Relations panel because everybody voted for themselves first and voted for me as their second choice, as the only sort of ethnic woman. I didn\u2019t think that I had a chance of winning and I got everybody\u2019s second vote. Obviously, that was the way that I won. I didn\u2019t get people\u2019s first vote. I\u2019m not so stupid. But because I then got the position of power I was able to do things. And that led to lots of other things that I did. So, I think of course the voting system is very important, the voting system is………first past the post is very difficult for minorities. But then I always say to people, you know women who say that, but you\u2019re the majority anyway. So, if you want to make it happen you can make it happen because you\u2019re the majority.<\/p>\n

And I used to say, I used to get very upset when I was campaigning to be told that I wasn\u2019t from the area, even though my children were born in the area, I lived my life in the area….because I was not born in England I found it very unpleasant and there was nothing you could do.<\/p>\n

But then, you know foreigners are foreigners forever. There was a letter in the local press in Harrow about how I should go home and fight elections in my own country. And I just thought that that was hitting below the belt, that wasn\u2019t proper. I went and saw the editor. I told the editor that the racist letter he printed was objectionable. Firstly I reasoned with him and said it wasn\u2019t right. I was a Harrow councillor and I had been elected with a landslide and he\u2019d seen the work that I did. He said that he admired what I did, but there was a feeling among the public that people like me should not be standing for Parliament and that we were foreigners. I told him that it is irresponsible to print letters from people who don\u2019t exist, a Mr Smith of some street in Harrow that didn\u2019t exist. He just wouldn\u2019t listen to me, so I said fine, the next time you print a letter like this, I shall make sure that every newsagent, they were all Guajarati Asians, nobody would sell his newspaper. I told him in no uncertain terms, you leave that to me. I said the newsagents make 5p profit per newspaper they sell, I will make sure they stop selling your paper. Never again did the editor print another racist article because he knew I was serious. So, I was able to use the power of a minority because I knew they controlled sales. I reasoned with the editor, but he wouldn\u2019t listen to my reasoning. He was a man that should have understood that all communities should take part in political life. He knew the importance of the work that I was doing, and the need to involve more people who were marginalised in those days.
MG-So minorities have to galvanize themselves.<\/p>\n

It was a brilliantly clever solution.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Well the point is because I went to him and tried to reason and I always think you should reason and you should say to people this is not right and explain why it\u2019s not right. But then when they\u2019re bullies, and they want to bully you, then, then, you know, I\u2019m not going to be bullied by anybody. I had the British National Party after me and there\u2019s no way…..I said if you want to stop me stand, against me, but you\u2019re not going to bully me and smash my car and break into my home and death threats after me and my family. You stand up for what you believe and that\u2019s fine, and I stand up for what I believe in, and then we go to the electorate. There should be people who do stand up for themselves that so that people don\u2019t feel intimidated. One of the things which used to happen in Harrow was that the Asians wouldn\u2019t go campaigning with me because they were scared as they were abused on the door steps. They were willing to give me funding and help me like that, they were very good, but they wouldn\u2019t do the knocking on the doors. Now I think that\u2019s all changed. And that things have really changed.<\/p>\n

I hope so.<\/h2>\n

ZG – Things have changed in Britain, they\u2019re much better. I don\u2019t think that that could happen now. I don\u2019t think that you\u2019d be spat upon and abused and all that. I don\u2019t think that it could happen now, but it did in those days. And it\u2019s all documented, so we don\u2019t forget those dark days. I hope things are much better.<\/p>\n

For example, go back to legislation, quite important. Farida Master who is in the process of writing my biography \u2018An Uncensored Life\u2019, for the publishers Harper Collins. She went through all my political documents that have been archived. And I\u2019d forgotten that about 35 years ago I\u2019d taken on this whole issue politically of sex and violence against women and paedophilia which are now the big issues of the moment. Farida was reading letters that I received from politicians, saying that if I carried on my political career would come to an end…..that this wasn\u2019t an issue for the police, politicians or me. Now look at it 35 years later, it\u2019s the issue that\u2019s on television every day. It\u2019s a huge issue. And she brought that out which is quite interesting because I had completely forgotten about it. Things are improving and being brought into the open. There does need to be legislation. The police and people in positions do have power should be made aware what\u2019s going on at the grass roots. How people suffer and have suffered.<\/p>\n

Related to democracy, is it problematic that members of the House of Lords who obviously have a role in legislation although not a final one aren\u2019t elected?<\/h2>\n

ZG – It\u2019s absolutely outrageous. It is a joke, that the British establishment goes around the world talking about banana republics. They should look at themselves. How can you have a second chamber that is not elected? How can you have a second body that has people who have been convicted of crimes who go to prison and come out and still legislate for us. Nobody\u2019s voted for them and nobody wants them there. We all know that people have landed in the House of Lords by paying money to political parties and it\u2019s just a nod and a wink. And the whole thing stinks. Britain should grow up. Anybody who puts any credence by the place should be looked at, and it\u2019s just a place, a fashionable club, to put people who\u2019ve retired from politics and their mates who\u2019ve given them money. That\u2019s what it is.<\/p>\n

MG – Do you think that you could have a purified second chamber, that isn\u2019t elected? If you just put worthy people there, or that just wouldn\u2019t work in practice? If you\u2019re worthy and you stand up I think that it would be very interesting to have elections to the House of Lords. There\u2019s a huge move in Britain at the moment to elect people who are independent. I think there\u2019s a great interest in people who are not party political who don\u2019t sing the party song. You know, the singer not the song, and who have got a background in what they\u2019ve done. So people actually say to them what have you done, and what is the experience you will bring to Britain as a legislator. And the electorate is much more sensible than people give them credence for……Do want to say anything about the Lords?
MG-I just wanted to ask you a question. What do you think if they had like people in the House of Lords temporarily so long as the fulfilled a certain office. So you\u2019d have people like the Archbishop of Canterbury….the bishops and the archbishops in the Lords.<\/p>\n

ZG – (laughs) Well I\u2019d keep them there.<\/p>\n

Because that\u2019s actually the next question.<\/h2>\n

ZG – I\u2019d keep them there because….first of all I think we\u2019re in a Christian country okay? I t\u2019s important we\u2019re in a Christian country. And I went to a Christian school and I\u2019m very grateful for the wonderful education I had. It\u2019s given me a knowledge of Christianity which, you know, I wouldn\u2019t have got otherwise. It would be very interesting, if you have an elected second chamber, then that elected chamber should probably…if you have people of faith there, then they should be of all faiths, but I think they should be elected by their own community, not just put there. Their own community should elect them.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s fascinating……it\u2019s something which we have been thinking about, because it seems to be an obvious solution. But it would be how would you identify the boundaries between faith communities where it wasn\u2019t necessarily clear as to where the divide between faith communities came and who gets the right to vote for whom if that makes sense.<\/h2>\n

ZG – That\u2019s very important. Either you say to the great British public voting for the second chamber, we would like a faith component, these are the people that have put themselves forward and you have it on a PR system. So, for example, Zoroastrians aren\u2019t going to get may people voting for Zoroastrians, but it might be a good way about enlightening people about the different faiths. Everybody might vote for Zoroastrians second, who knows? You just never know and people can be very capricious, they might just say well I want to vote for something that\u2019s different. I don\u2019t know who these Zoroastrians are but let\u2019s give them a chance, you never know. I believe that there should be a proportion of women, there should be a proportion of faith.<\/p>\n

MG – A set proportion?<\/p>\n

ZG – Yes, even if it\u2019s a minority. Yes, in lots of governments around the world minorities do have a spokesperson. Even in Pakistan, which is a Muslim Parliament, you have the minorities in place. And even in Iran, the Zoroastrians have a minority that speaks on their behalf. But it must be somebody who speaks on their behalf and not just a little club of people who\u2019ve decided who they want to put there. Because that\u2019s another fear of mine, even if you have a community, they among themselves, the men among themselves can decide who they want to put there and there isn\u2019t a vote. So, it\u2019s fraught with difficulties. But there must be a fairer way than what there is now.<\/p>\n

MG – Do you think it should be elected by the general population.<\/p>\n

ZG – I think.<\/p>\n

MG – And it\u2019s different from the House of Commons in that they represent…..<\/p>\n

ZG – The House of Commons.<\/p>\n

MG – Rather than constituencies they represent interests within society.<\/p>\n

ZG – Yes, or even just people, it would be very interesting for the debate for people to have what is real wisdom, you have a second chamber of wise people. I mean it sounds ridiculous but why not? The world is changing people want wise people.<\/p>\n

MG – Well shouldn\u2019t we have wise people in the first chamber?<\/p>\n

ZG – We should, but that\u2019s up to them to decide for whom they want to vote….the rabble rousers…..but I think there should be some system whereby…..you see I don\u2019t think wise people and people with long experience……I think a lot of people haven\u2019t got the guts to go into politics and go through the electoral system and to bang on doors and do campaigning. A lot of people don\u2019t like doing that, are not good at doing it, but they have things to offer. But you have to have some voting system, I don\u2019t think that you can just plonk them there because the prime minister thinks they\u2019d be good or a political party puts them forward.<\/p>\n

MG – Can I just ask you, what about if we got the bishops and the Chief Rabbi and whoever it was and the heads of the universities and the most eminent people and the head doctors, and don\u2019t who they are, the head of the medical society, the head of the Law Society.<\/p>\n

ZG – I wouldn\u2019t give it to the heads.<\/p>\n

MG – Top judges.<\/p>\n

ZG – It wouldn\u2019t be the heads…you see, the heads, what I\u2019ve seen in life, the people who get to the positions of power are good at manoeuvring, they may not be the wisest, often the people who could actually change the way we live don\u2019t want to go into that minefield. But I think that if they were given the exposure, in the media, which they would be if they were standing for election, the debate would change a great deal. I\u2019m thinking seriously that we should have a programme, it would show another way of education. People need to know that people are doing things differently, which we don\u2019t get exposed to and I think that\u2019s important. So maybe this would be a way of opening up the debate and looking at the way…..I mean, I rang up Chanel 4, they were discussing, who\u2019s that Lord?<\/p>\n

MG – What did he do?<\/p>\n

ZG – You know, the one who was molesting women in the Liberals….Renard I spoke to Cathy Newman and it would be interesting, I thought that the women were very brave. Because my generation just walked away from people like Renard, we just walked away and said we don\u2019t want to be involved in this, and these are unpleasant people they\u2019re horrible, and they would stop people\u2019s careers, destroy people\u2019s careers. And then these young women came out, especially the woman from Oxford and stood up and said we\u2019re not going to put up with this. Even if our careers destroyed we don\u2019t care, our political career, we\u2019ve got other careers we can go into academia whatever it is. I really admire them because we didn\u2019t do it, our generation thought that….a bit like the Prime Minister of Australia Julia Gillard. I think that Gillard was interesting. She said if you expose them you\u2019re being a harridan, if you don\u2019t expose them you\u2019re being a victim. It\u2019s very difficult to find the right way, anyway, I was speaking to Cathy Newman about it and I said to her what really needs reforming is the House of Lords. It\u2019s not going to happen in a hurry because those in power will never allow it to happen. People in power know that\u2019s where they\u2019re going it\u2019s their safety net, so why are they going to change it? I mean the debate on PR and the reform of the House of Lords was nonsensical there was no debate, because nobody wanted to debate it, so nobody went and voted. It should have been an issue on all media programs, schools in every workplace etc, and didn\u2019t even know anybody was voting on it. And so I hope that something like this book will actually make it a debate. Top me it\u2019s really important. When you have the appointments commission with people who refuse to stand down and have been exposed for taking money by the media and they\u2019re still there, they\u2019re still deciding who goes in to the House of Lords, then you wonder how the public think the system isn\u2019t working for them. When they\u2019ve been exposed in the papers for corruption and they\u2019re still kept there by those in power. That\u2019s a mockery of democracy.<\/p>\n

What does your faith teach about people with power and how they should be held accountable?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Everybody\u2019s accountable. There is no escape from karma. As it says in the Bible \u2018as you sow, so shall you reap\u2019.<\/p>\n

So in Zoroastrian terms there is this understanding of, in a relational sense, sort of good being owed between human beings as well as being between humans and the divinity?<\/h2>\n

ZG – If I can bring joy to someone\u2019s life it is important to me. I fight for other people\u2019s justice but I fight for my own justice as well. And I think that\u2019s quite important because people forget that. I went to Nick Clegg about an issue that was unjust. Even though I had left the Liberals 20 years ago. I think the way they\u2019ve had behaved was despicable. Clegg refused to discuss it, absolutely refused to discuss it. That\u2019s cowardice, and for a deputy Prime Minster of Great Britain it\u2019s pathetic. I think it\u2019s wrong when people go to those in power, with a misuse of justice and it is not taken up or even acknowledged. So, does that answer your question about justice?<\/p>\n

Is it important for you personally to always act within the bounds of State law?<\/h2>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

MG – Sure!<\/p>\n

ZG – Of course! I always drive at 30mph…..<\/p>\n

And does your religion teach anything about whether to respect secular law, whether to defy it in some circumstances?<\/h2>\n

ZG – It doesn\u2019t say anything like that does it, it\u2019s such an old religion.<\/p>\n

MG – Zoroastrianism….yeah it\u2019s a very ancient religion and in the very earliest times there was very little prescriptive stuff about what\u2019s right and what\u2019s wrong. Right and wrong is very important, but it\u2019s not defined so clearly. It was later on in the Classical period but then a lot of those writings were lost after the Greek and Arab conquests of Iran, and so, Zoroastrianism you\u2019ll find doesn\u2019t have a lot to say in detail about lots of things. Zoroastrianism is much better at the big brush strokes, and these kinds of specific questions don\u2019t always apply. You can always ask individual Zoroastrians how they interpret their religion.<\/p>\n

ZG – If something is wrong I would expose it, I would see it as my job to expose things, if something is legally right and I think it\u2019s wrong I would challenge it.<\/p>\n

Do you think that in Great Britain the Rule of Law is applied equally to everyone in our society, or do some groups experience either preferential or prejudicial treatment from public bodies…..and that would include things like schools, hospitals the criminal justice system….<\/h2>\n

ZG – It\u2019s very subtle discrimination, I don\u2019t think I could pinpoint it for you. But it\u2019s very interesting. When I researched for my first book, A Golden Thread: Asian experience in post Raj Britain\u2019\u2019 I interviewed a lot of Asians in quite positions of power……all of them without exception said they felt prejudiced against and they couldn\u2019t pinpoint what it was like, sort of background noise it was always there. And often they didn\u2019t talk about it because it made them sound you know weedy and silly and that they were you know, complaining all the time about discrimination but there was not a single person who didn\u2019t feel some sort of prejudice. I\u2019m in no doubt that if I was a white woman I\u2019d be in Parliament. No doubt, I think I\u2019ve been prejudiced against because of my heritage, no doubt. But you know, it\u2019s changing, you know, it\u2019s changing. And it\u2019s changing because people are more aware, they\u2019re questioning.<\/p>\n

Okay…and I think that the last one has been pretty much covered really…..but are you aware of any specific legal rules which have a direct impact on your freedom to practice your faith and are any of these recent?<\/h2>\n

ZG – I think it must be the Towers of Silence.<\/p>\n

Yeah, that must be the biggest.<\/h2>\n

ZG – It must be the Towers of Silence, but the Towers of Silence couldn\u2019t work anyway because of the heat. They\u2019d have to go into lime, I don\u2019t think it would be possible, would it? I mean there is a woman in Gloucestershire that is breeding….<\/p>\n

MG – Vultures.<\/p>\n

ZG – Vultures for us.<\/p>\n

That is fascinating, I don\u2019t really know enough about the mechanics of how long the vultures would need to….<\/h2>\n

ZG – Well, you need the heat to….for the bones…..but I suppose the bones could go into lime.<\/p>\n

Yes, maybe once the vultures had done their job maybe you could artificially do the rest. Would that then be permissible for someone to disturb them before a particular time?<\/h2>\n

ZG – No, but, you have the well where the bones go into which then is lime, so I suppose they could make it steeper. But I don\u2019t think you could do it here because I don\u2019t think there\u2019s enough sun. First of all, I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s any part of England where you would have enough space to put it, or a high mountain. Where would you put it? I mean you could put it in Snowdonia if you gave us permission.<\/p>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

MG – You could always just feed the bodies to dog\u2019s mum, why not?<\/p>\n

ZG – Well actually……you could feed the bodies to dogs, I remember Lord Avebury said that, as a Buddhist he would give his body to Battersea Dogs\u2019 Home. But I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the point, it\u2019s a little but more than giving it to dogs. It\u2019s to do with birds flying, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

MG – Oh.<\/p>\n

ZG – I think it\u2019s to do with that<\/p>\n

I think…..I\u2019m sure I read somewhere that birds were chosen partly because there was no risk of the Earth being polluted.<\/h2>\n

ZG-I think so, I think it\u2019s because birds go up.<\/p>\n

Because dogs cache stuff and ..<\/h2>\n

MG – Oh right, right, yeah.<\/p>\n

ZG – It\u2019s to do with going up as well, the birds…..We haven\u2019t got a Fire Temple have we? But I don\u2019t think the government would object to that, it\u2019s just us don\u2019t bother.<\/p>\n

MG – Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

ZG – They wouldn\u2019t object to that.<\/p>\n

MG – It\u2019s just too expensive.<\/p>\n

I mean what exactly happens in the Fire Temples?<\/h2>\n

ZG – I mean if this was the Inner Sanctuary, you\u2019d have the big urn, the silver urn with the fire……to be fed only with sandalwood which is becoming very difficult to get and is causing great problems to get sandalwood because you can\u2019t cut down the woods to get sandalwood.<\/p>\n

Is there an expectation that where possible people go very regularly or…?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Oh yes, but what we don\u2019t do is we don\u2019t have a day like….unless there\u2019s a festival. When everybody goes to the Agiary the Fire Temple…..we don\u2019t, it\u2019s not a certain day like a Sunday, it\u2019s not like the Muslims go to a mosque on a Friday. My family would go everyday to pray in India. They\u2019ll go to the Agiary and pray or they\u2019ll go whenever they want. I think there\u2019s interaction between Zoroastrians and Christianity especially respect for the Virgin Mary……and it\u2019s because many Zoroastrians went to Catholic schools.<\/p>\n

MG – Zoroastrians in India, a lot of them have become quite syncretic in their religious practices, they\u2019ve absorbed the openness in a lot of Hindu culture, so they take an interest in many different things. So mum was talking about karma earlier on and everyone\u2019s going to get their just desserts…..there are all sorts of other examples.<\/p>\n

ZG – We\u2019ve taken a lot from Hinduism, because we\u2019ve been there so long and we\u2019ve given to people. But religion is just so interconnected…and for me 21st century is really about evolved souls getting together and just saying you know this is the way we can go forward and we support each other. I see that the forces of darkness work together and they\u2019re very powerful and they control…..they have power and they know how to use power. I meet many extraordinarily good people, very creative, loving people but they\u2019re doing individual things and nobody brings them together, there\u2019s no system that brings them together, so you don\u2019t feel their power of what they\u2019re doing, so you think there isn\u2019t so much goodness but there\u2019s a lot of goodness in the world…..but they don\u2019t work together, they don\u2019t get pulled together…..the forces of darkness know each other, they work together, they support each other, they promote each other.<\/p>\n

MG – They feed off each other.<\/p>\n

So why do the forces of light not do the same?<\/h2>\n

ZG – I have no idea….I often go to conferences and ask them…I meet the most extraordinary people all over the world where I talk….extraordinary, doing really interesting things and nobody has brought them together….that\u2019s…..if anybody can do that they\u2019ll be doing the next karmic move for the world, to bring these people together and say, you know, they should be meeting. And again, I don\u2019t know why. Often you go to interfaith events, I don\u2019t go to very much now because it\u2019s the same people. But they just sort of go to conferences, and instead of actually experiencing what people are doing in the workplace and how they\u2019re changing things. So for example, in the education system there\u2019s a lot of people doing good things…..they should get together and go to the Education Minister, have programs and you know and bring it out to the wider public, this is what we\u2019re doing and this is the impact it\u2019s making. So, you can bring communities together. Like when we had the Muslims and the Jews, in the end the Muslims were joining in the Sabbath. The Jews couldn\u2019t believe it….and they were really interested.<\/p>\n

MG – What was this mum?<\/p>\n

ZG – When the young Muslims and the Jews came to the ASHA Centre. We were thrilled and it completely changed the way they behaved towards each other. Before then all they used to go on and say to us was \u2018oh the Muslims hate us….they want us out of Israel…oh they hate us\u2019 I mean when the Muslims actually listened and sat in and watched the Sabbath they were fascinated and then the whole equation changed one evening. That\u2019s a completely different experience to saying to people, oh we\u2019ll take you to see the Temple….it\u2019s just a sort of outing to a museum, they don\u2019t experience what somebody really feels….what keeps them going.<\/p>\n

Is there anything else that you like to tell us? Particularly about freedom and belief in Great Britain, but anything in general that you\u2019d like to say?<\/h2>\n

ZG – Do you want to say something about what people at ASHA do?<\/p>\n

MG – The young people that come to the ASHA Centre, we get really extraordinary feedback, and it\u2019s sort of beyond what we as individuals are offering. And so we ask ourselves the question, why are they having such an amazing…..what\u2019s feeding them so strongly? And the answer we\u2019ve come up with is two-fold. Firstly, it\u2019s because people here are in a beautiful environment they\u2019re in nature and there is just something about that that allows them to relax and experience a kind of inner peace and I think that people are very disconnected from nature now and spend a lot of time in front of computers and in cities. The second thing is that they are able just to enjoy one another\u2019s company, in a way that they\u2019re not judged they\u2019re not having to prove anything, they\u2019re not in any kind of role, it\u2019s not like work. And they just sort of connection as human beings, who they really are, everybody\u2019s accepted. We play all these games at the beginning to break down barriers and everything, and so there\u2019s this experience of community and all relationship with nature. And those are the two big things that our societies need.<\/p>\n

\n

Zerbanoo Gifford<\/em><\/h2>\n

Author, human rights campaigner and founder of the ASHA Centre, Zerbanoo Gifford holds the International Woman of the Year Award 2006 for her humanitarian work, which spans more than 40 years of grassroots and global activism. In 1989, Zerbanoo was presented with the Nehru Centenary Award for her work championing the rights of women, children and minorities.<\/em><\/p>\n

A pioneer for Asian women in British politics, she made history in 1982 by being elected to Harrow council and becoming the first non-white woman to stand for Parliament. Zerbanoo chaired the Commission looking into ethnic minority involvement in British Life and was a member of the advisory group to the British Home Secretary, the Rt Hon Jack Straw MP.<\/em><\/p>\n

Zerbanoo was the London organiser for the homeless charity Shelter and former director of Anti-Slavery International. She was also awarded the Freedom of the City of Lincoln, Nebraska, for her work combating racism, human trafficking and bonded labour, and for authoring a book on Thomas Clarkson and the Campaign Against Slavery.<\/em><\/p>\n

She has been a women\u2019s magazine editor and was nominated for the British Editors Award. She has written widely on historical, social and political themes, with all proceeds of her seven books going to nominated charities. These include: The Golden Thread: Asian Experiences of Post-Raj Britain; Dadabhai Naoroji, Britain\u2019s first Asian MP \u2013 for which she chaired his centenary celebrations in 1992; The Asian Presence in Europe; and most recently, Confessions to a Serial Womaniser: Secrets of the World\u2019s Inspirational Women \u2013 featuring interviews with 300 exceptional women from 60 countries. The book, website and international mentoring project result from Zerbanoo receiving a National Endowment of Science, Technology and Arts Fellowship. She contributed to BBC\u2019s Video Nation series and was involved in two documentaries on street children for Channel 5.<\/em><\/p>\n

Zerbanoo\u2019s greatest achievement is founding the ASHA Centre in the Forest of Dean \u2013 recognised globally as a centre creating opportunities for young people to experience inspiration, connection and purpose. ASHA\u2019s richly varied programme of activities are designed to meet the challenges of the times \u2013 combining community arts, sustainable living, transformational leadership, intercultural and interfaith dialogue, and active volunteering. Her biography, An Uncensored Life, written by Farida Master and published by Harper Collins, is now available on Amazon and all good bookshops.<\/em><\/p>\n

Mark Gifford<\/em><\/h2>\n

Mark is the Director of the ASHA Centre, a British educational charity and retreat venue. ASHA provides opportunities for young people from around the world to experience inspiration, connection and purpose. Its does so through its four-fold educational model which brings together community, land and arts based activities with an approach that engages head, heart and hands<\/em><\/p>\n

Mark has a Masters (Distinction) in the Study of Religion, is an ordained ‘interfaith’ minister and a qualified solicitor. He studied at the Universities of Durham, Oxford and London and before joining ASHA, was Assistant CEO of an international British based youth and interfaith charity. His main loves are his wife and son, but he’s also passionate about the Forest of Dean, classical music and the religious traditions of India and Iran<\/em><\/p>\n

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Related<\/h1>\n

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Jon Nott<\/h2><\/div><\/div><\/a>
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The Right Reverend Dominic Walker OGS<\/h2><\/div><\/div><\/a><\/div>
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+44 (0) 161 306 6000<\/p>\n

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The University of Manchester
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Manchester
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