![\"Janette](\"https:\/\/sites.manchester.ac.uk\/religion-law-and-the-constitution\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/473\/2025\/11\/Janette-Wilson.jpg\")
How would you describe your personal beliefs and identity in relation to religion?<\/h2>\n[et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ admin_label=”section” fullwidth=”on” next_background_color=”#000000″ global_module=”322″][et_pb_fullwidth_menu global_parent=”322″ _builder_version=”3.17.6″ menu_id=”8″ submenu_direction=”downwards” fullwidth_menu=”off” background_layout=”dark” module_class=”main-navigation” \/][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ fullwidth=”off” specialty=”on” prev_background_color=”#000000″ next_background_color=”#1d1d1d”][et_pb_column type=”2_3″ specialty_columns=”2″][et_pb_row_inner locked=”off”][et_pb_column_inner type=”4_4″ saved_specialty_column_type=”2_3″][et_pb_post_title _builder_version=”3.17.6″ featured_placement=”above” locked=”on” parent_locked=”off” date_format=”j M Y” \/][et_pb_text _builder_version=”3.17.6″ background_layout=”light” parent_locked=”off”]<\/p>\n
How would you describe your personal beliefs and identity in relation to religion?<\/h2>\nI suppose, if we\u2019re being very legalistic about it, I\u2019m a Presbyterian. I\u2019m a member of a congregation of the Church of Scotland here in Edinburgh. I grew up in the Church, Sunday School, Girls\u2019 Brigade and so on in a congregation in Inverness. I became a member there, drifted a bit during university years and then returned to it as I can think people do, and I became an elder of the church some years ago. What made me stick? I wonder if that\u2019s my personality, I don\u2019t know. I think I probably felt very comfortable with the Church of Scotland. I didn\u2019t really see that there was any reason to go anywhere else. In fact, the congregation I\u2019m with at the moment is in some ways quite different from the congregation I grew up in. There is a breadth of tradition within the Church of Scotland. I don\u2019t think there was a huge theological difference but the practices and ritual carried out were a bit different. I think that was sufficiently different for me perhaps. I didn\u2019t really feel the need to explore further.<\/p>\n
I think overall yes. There clearly has been an unfortunate history in parts of Scotland of Sectarianism between Catholics and Protestants. This is now very much on the wane, but I think that it has obviously in the past led to tensions and difficulties. A number of those reflecting on that situation, did appreciate that it was more a tribalism thing, which centred around football, large scale immigration and historical circumstances but inevitably it was badged as being due to religious differences. I suspect that that maybe has soured the views of some of the people from outwith either of the churches. But overall generally I would say that Scotland is now a tolerant country. There is a small number of secular people who are very anti-religion and at times although they\u2019re quite small in number they do seem to be very vocal and you do get the feeling that, if this was to escalate that would lead to a greater degree of intolerance. But overall yes, I think yes, I think if you ask people, even if they\u2019re not church attenders, they tend to feel that the church is a force for good rather than something which is harmful to society as a whole.<\/p>\n
As the Church of Scotland is the national church, it is kind of the default church if you know what I mean, and unlike the situation if you were perhaps a member of one of the smaller, perhaps Evangelical where people might look slightly askance at you, I don\u2019t think that you get that if you\u2019re a Church of Scotland member. This is because most people, even though they don\u2019t go to the church, if they were asked, as happened in the census, some 40% or so would identify as being Church of Scotland. Arguably our middle level has got too weak and is not really providing the necessary link throughout the year and as the General Assembly just meets once a year it\u2019s a bit of a problem. We may become an even broader church if congregations are really just doing their own thing.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s a tricky one isn\u2019t it? I think when the Human Rights Act was a bill, there was some concern within the Church as to how it would interact with what was seen as being our traditional constitutional position. I\u2019m not sure day to day that we do feel that this has in a practical sense happened, but obviously we\u2019ve had a lot of difficult debates at times as to how freedom of religion on the one hand and the balance between that and other rights operates. Looking at some of the decisions which either involve the churches directly or indirectly, I think that at times our perspective might be that the courts have not got the balance right and they have given too little prominence to rights associated with religion and the practice of it compared to the other rights.<\/p>\n
A substantive part of our law in the Church of Scotland has been re-written in the last decade or so because it has had to take cognisance of changes in UK law, which has been influenced of course by equalities legislation and by European Human Rights legislation. So for example, we\u2019ve introduced new things as a result of having to enact legislation on bullying, discrimination and harassment.<\/p>\n
We\u2019re looking at our disciplinary procedures. I\u2019d like to think that we\u2019d probably have overhauled them, because there is a tradition of concepts such as natural justice in the church anyway. But I think that knowing that somebody might be looking over our shoulders it does put a spotlight on things that the Church has done, and which with hindsight should have been done differently. That was more to do with whether ministers as office holders had equivalent rights in terms of employment law rather than discrimination law. So it was UK rather than European law. Scots law, particularly criminal law, has had to examine the way in which things have been done and change an awful lot because long established practices \u2013 for example locking up people in police stations without access to lawyers for very long periods, slopping out by prisoners – have been successfully challenged. I think it all trickles down. I think this has been an influence on all institutions in Scotland, including the church.<\/p>\n
I think that it\u2019s difficult to argue against human rights being a positive thing. But I do sometimes feel that as well as human rights, there are also obligations and undoubtedly it\u2019s like health and safety legislation. It\u2019s often the cases that get reported that are about people not being able to be deported because they\u2019ve got a cat, you know these kind of fringe cases I think devalue some of the ways in which human rights have been applied via the courts. That therefore leads to tensions and suggestions about repeal of the Human Rights Act which is very easy until politicians try and decide what it is they are going to put in a Bill of Rights and nobody of course can agree about that.<\/p>\n
Practical influence on human rights? Well that would probably be our Church and Society council wouldn\u2019t it? They do feel very strongly I think about some questions, and I think not only that Council but the Church as a whole has been quite driven by questions of poverty and justice in that area, and try campaign on issues such as the need for food banks and so on. We would see this more as social justice than human rights. But they are opposite sides of the same coin.<\/p>\n
Well, there\u2019s certainly enough legislation to try to encourage them to do that and, in Scotland in particular, councils do have a public sector duty to take all of these things into account in their decision making. I kind of feel maybe things went back a little bit because of the economic downturn. I think it is easier to do the right thing when there\u2019s money sloshing around.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m trying to think of examples because the problem is I think that there are so many different factors. If you look for example in Scotland we\u2019ve recently had all the police authorities, the individual police forces and they\u2019ve all been brought together into one force, called Police Scotland and unfortunately that has led to a lot of other problems about IT systems not working with each other and so on. I think then these things that are minor in themselves can spill over into situations where there are fewer police on the streets and things aren\u2019t being dealt with as well as possible. But generally speaking I think that public authorities are striving to do the right things, but, as with so many other things, life can get in the way.<\/p>\n
Yes, well you believe in freedom of speech, but then it does then spill over. There is a line where it becomes an incitement to violence.
Is living in a Parliamentary democracy a positive thing? Is there is any kind of government which you would prefer?
Do they not say that democracy is the worst system, apart from all the rest? I do feel that in Scotland at times we feel we\u2019re over-governed. Too many politicians really, but that\u2019s just a very jaundiced view. Whereas constitutionally the Church of Scotland has this interesting kind of opt out from Parliamentary Sovereignty, which maybe is still quite, it\u2019s still important but clearly it\u2019s not as apparent as it was in the past. It does seem to come as a surprise to politicians from time to time that at least in theory there are areas into which Parliamentary authority cannot go. And we remind them about it from time to time.<\/p>\n
Well I feel I have responsibility to vote because of what the suffragettes went through, that\u2019s more important to me there than my Presbyterian faith but that\u2019s a personal thing.<\/p>\n
It does happen a little bit\u2026the judges say that well this part of a statue may say black but in order to conform to a European directive we\u2019re going to say it\u2019s white, and I think there\u2019s a bit of tension over that\u2026and obviously Parliament doesn\u2019t like that and you can see sometimes and feel that probably behind the scenes there\u2019s pressure being put on judges and so on. I don\u2019t know\u2026I think it\u2019s a difficult question to answer because I think on the one hand it\u2019s important that we have certainty in our law\u2026we can look up a statue and if it says something you know that is the case. Whereas for example, all of this recent nonsense about you know holiday pay, whereas the UK statute says quite clearly what a normal week\u2019s pay is for holidays but based on European views of that you\u2019ve now got to add in commission and there\u2019s all this question about employers maybe having to pay back dated and all this uncertainty. And I think that\u2019s really difficult for people and I think that maybe it\u2019s a question of aid. I think that I\u2019d rather go for certainty.<\/p>\n
I think there are a lot of strands to that. Firstly I was a bit concerned to hear that there is a fear that the postal voting system is now within some communities leading to a situation of members of families perhaps being disenfranchised because one of the family – the pater familias – is just collecting in all of their votes and voting for them. And I think those sorts of developments are always a worry. I think it\u2019s always very difficult too because Westminster went through the process of looking whether to retain first past the post voting or were they going to move to PR which is what we have in Scotland. Certainly I think we\u2019ve kind of pioneered the idea of coalition government. Now it seems that things are not splitting up nicely along the lines of the two main and one subsidiary party and we\u2019ve got all these other parties. Who knows where it\u2019s all going to go? So, in some ways, maybe that gives people the feeling that if they go out and vote, their vote may count more than if they happened to be staying in a particular constituency where everybody knows that the vote will go in favour of one party.<\/p>\n
It is problematic, but on the other hand when you see the quality of some of the people that come through a system which on the face of it is awful, you do have in the House of Lords an effective revising chamber. I think again it\u2019s a problem, going back to what we said about democracy, that at the moment the current system is probably dreadful but all the others seem to be worse. The prospect of another body being elected, which would probably then want to expand its role and which the Commons would then see as a threat, could be a problem too. But there have been so many proposals for reform and I think that the Church has been consulted on numerous occasions as to whether they should be a widening of religious representation or of course whether there should be religious representation at all? Is it right that there should still be just Church of England bishops, or should other denominations be given one place? I think that at one stage there was a proposal in terms of which the Church of Scotland would have got a place. But the caravan moved on again and in fact I think that apart from removing some of the hereditary peers not much has changed.<\/p>\n
I suppose we would say this wouldn\u2019t we, but I think I would rather the bishops should be there than that there should be no religious representation. However, I think that it does now seem in the 21st century seem extremely unbalanced that you do have all these Lords Spiritual and they\u2019re all from the Church of England. I think they do speak on behalf of all people of faith\u2026and I think that\u2019s why I say I\u2019d rather them be there.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s difficult to come up with examples However, I think that some of the legislation which is being passed is very difficult – dangerous dogs and so on – and has been ignored and not vigorously enforced, but looking at things that are of major moment if you follow me, I\u2019m not aware that people deliberately just ignore the law.<\/p>\n
You couldn\u2019t look at European legislation and say that it\u2019s all good or all bad. I think there\u2019s a lot of work to be done in reforming the way in which the European institutions work. Probably it is overdramatised but there is no doubt that in the view of a lot of people, it costs far too much for all these politicians to roam around Europe to their various places and the whole process seems to be unduly bureaucratic and so on. And naturally you start thinking of over regulation – straight cucumbers and you can\u2019t call them sausages. But there\u2019s good stuff and bad stuff, and it\u2019s the same I think with the Scottish Parliament and you can feel as we\u2019ve said they are closer to home. They maybe idiots but they\u2019re our idiots and we\u2019ve elected them, and I think that from a lawyer\u2019s point of view they\u2019ve taken the Scots Law system which was so creaking because if you were lucky you got a Law Reform Miscellaneous Provisions Act every few years which tinkered with it but there\u2019s been quite a radical change, particularly in property law and lots of other areas which were long overdue. Not all of it has been good but it\u2019s an awful lot better than it was.<\/p>\n
We fight like Hell against it when it\u2019s been passed, and then we gold plate it when it gets here and add knobs to it. I digress but there was a lovely wee article when the trams came out because to save money they decided they would scrap the air-conditioning on the basis that it\u2019s never that hot in Edinburgh which might be reasonable, except they didn\u2019t change the windows and so they don\u2019t open. Somebody wrote this article saying if he had been a pig on a tram how many different European regulations would have been breached by this\u2026.size of his crate, the temperature, how often he was given water etc. And yes, you do feel some of it goes overboard.<\/p>\n
I would say yes. The SNP in particular has always been looking to Europe. I suspect that this might have been for political convenience. It was funny that they had to stop citing the Irish tiger as how great Scotland could be, when things didn\u2019t go so well after 2008. I think it\u2019s a bit romanticised all this stuff about the Auld Alliance with France and we hate the English. So I think there\u2019s still a misty view about that. If European legislation hits people in the pocket, they don\u2019t like it any more than they do in England.<\/p>\n
We do pray for people in power don\u2019t we? That they should have wisdom and make wise decisions.<\/p>\n
I think it varies over time, there are always a fairly significant number. I don\u2019t think that we would expect them to be going in and lobbying for the Church of Scotland. We might perhaps approach them more easily than people without a church connection, but being Scottish they will all have their own views about life the universe and everything.<\/p>\n
Do you think that too, now they have to have registers of interests, that some of them might be reluctant to badge themselves as Christian, because that might play against their political career?<\/p>\n
The ones I know certainly are, they wouldn\u2019t want to kowtow to politicians.<\/p>\n
The judiciary are our first bastion, if that were to go awry we are almost into the Nigeria type situation.<\/p>\n
There are various routes. The Church and Society Council campaign on various issues. They will have links with various politicians. We do have various other committees, depending on the issue. They might respond to consultation documents or do something more direct. We have undertaken Judicial Review, but that is not a usual route. Generally we will engage with people.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s difficult to give a yes or no answer. Schools differ a lot and can be influenced by one headmaster. Religious observance has been a hot potato in Scotland – the whole issue of how that will happen, and if indeed it does happen. Undoubtedly the standing of the Christian churches is not what is was here, and it is the art of the possible.<\/p>\n
And I think that there would be occasions when people have not entirely gone along with immigration law, because of feelings about immigrants who are going to be removed. There have been discussions about giving sanctuary in churches, so there are some cases where people would nail their colours to the mast.<\/p>\n
Yes!<\/p>\n
I suspect that there are more cases than we know about. I was very shocked by the story about sex abuse in Bradford came about, and it was obvious that the police had been turning a blind eye, and weren\u2019t prepared to listen to these girls from poor background. I don\u2019t think that Scotland is any different, there will be these pockets of injustice.<\/p>\n
Although they introduced all of that legislation after the deaths of the cockle collectors at Morecombe it\u2019s not been that effective.<\/p>\n
It is very difficult when you come up against the kind of terrorism and threats which are all too real. It is trying to get the right balance, but you will never do that in all cases.<\/p>\n
Petty annoyances, parking regulations and the like. But speaking generally, there isn\u2019t much.<\/p>\n
Janette Wilson studied law at Edinburgh University. After qualifying as a solicitor and following a period in private practice, she joined the in-house legal department of the Church of Scotland in 1979 as Depute Solicitor. She was appointed as Solicitor of the Church and Law Agent of the General Assembly in 1995. She has represented the Church on a number of ecumenical bodies including the Churches Legislation Advisory Service and served as secretary of its Scottish sister body, the Scottish Churches Committee. She retired in May 2016.<\/p>\n
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