{"id":1948,"date":"2017-07-17T16:26:55","date_gmt":"2017-07-17T15:26:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/sites.manchester.ac.uk\/religion-law-and-the-constitution\/?p=1948"},"modified":"2025-11-28T16:51:08","modified_gmt":"2025-11-28T16:51:08","slug":"elder-clifford-herbertson","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/sites.manchester.ac.uk\/religion-law-and-the-constitution\/2017\/07\/17\/elder-clifford-herbertson\/","title":{"rendered":"Elder Clifford Herbertson"},"content":{"rendered":"

[et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ admin_label=”section” fullwidth=”on” next_background_color=”#000000″ global_module=”322″][et_pb_fullwidth_menu global_parent=”322″ _builder_version=”3.17.6″ menu_id=”8″ submenu_direction=”downwards” fullwidth_menu=”off” background_layout=”dark” module_class=”main-navigation” \/][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ fullwidth=”off” specialty=”on” prev_background_color=”#000000″ next_background_color=”#1d1d1d”][et_pb_column type=”2_3″ specialty_columns=”2″][et_pb_row_inner locked=”off”][et_pb_column_inner type=”4_4″ saved_specialty_column_type=”2_3″][et_pb_post_title _builder_version=”3.17.6″ featured_placement=”above” locked=”on” parent_locked=”off” date_format=”j M Y” \/][et_pb_text _builder_version=”3.17.6″ background_layout=”light” parent_locked=”off”]<\/p>\n

\"ElderHow would you describe yourself in terms of religious belief and identity?<\/h2>\n

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As you know our nickname is often Mormon.\u00a0 I have been a lifelong member, my parents are both members of the church and I was baptised as an eight year old and I consider myself a very active and faithful member of the church.\u00a0 In the UK there are just under 200,000 members of our church and I would say less than half would have been lifelong members, many would have joined the church as would what we call a convert.\u00a0 Baptism in our church is at age eight, so if they were baptised at eight we say they were born in the church, after that we consider them a convert.\u00a0 I would say that a significant portion, at least half would be converts within the UK.<\/p>\n

Is GB an equal and tolerant society, especially in relation to religion and belief?<\/h2>\n

I would say predominately yes, I think that there are certain cultural aspects.\u00a0 I think there\u2019s a difference between institutional approach and tolerance and cultural.\u00a0 I would say institutionally yes, the review of religion etc, I don\u2019t think that there is any institutional lack of tolerance.\u00a0 But culturally I would say there is\u2026..certainly within certain groups, and I would say as a young person growing up in Glasgow as a faithful churchgoer, I was the only one in any of my classes going to church.\u00a0 And that certainly takes you out a little for teasing, for people taking the Mickey of that.\u00a0 Those prejudices would be faced by other religions too, because I was Mormon an extra little bit, but I just think anyone who practised and followed their religion can be taken out for prejudice.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

How easy to live in accordance with your faith?\u00a0 Are there challenges, and if so, are they social, political or legal?<\/h2>\n

For me personally, no problem.\u00a0 I haven\u2019t encountered and don\u2019t encounter anything which stops me practising my faith at all.\u00a0 My social circle is predominantly Mormon, but I have a lot\u2026.within my business circle and political circle within which I move I think there is a complete acceptance of my religious belief and following my faith.\u00a0 People know from the outset that I have a certain background and certain faith and I don\u2019t think that I\u2019ve been regarded differently because of that.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

How does your religion regard Human Rights?<\/h2>\n

I think one of the fundamental tenets of our belief, is that we belief that every person is a son or daughter of God, and that as such they should all be treated lovingly, caringly and openly and that is our most fundamental aspect of our view on human rights.\u00a0 Because of that relationship that literally we are brothers and sisters of a Heavenly father then we treat each other in that way.\u00a0 And so we do what we can to support people rights with religion to worship God in accordance with the dictates their own conscience, and according to other outlooks to act in their own way.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Are Human Rights applied to all people in our society a good or a bad thing?<\/h2>\n

It can only be a good thing for British society for us to have that, because it\u2019s about respect.\u00a0 If we respect each other we seek to understand why they do things, why they behave in a certain way, and I think as long as we are open to understanding, accepting and respecting other people we will be able to live in a much more comfortable society.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Does your group have a practical influence on Human Rights?<\/h2>\n

The church, and again I think we always have to separate the church and an institution and church members acting.\u00a0 There are many church members who play an active role in politics in the UK, and active roles within their communities, whether that\u2019s as a school governor or an MP, so a broad range of engagement.\u00a0 As church as a whole, as an institution, we will identify certain issues that we believe are very important to put in formal engagement or make formal statements on.\u00a0 Those would tend to be around areas effecting religious rights.\u00a0 But we also like to applaud governments when they make positive steps, so for example recently the prime minister announced that they would introduced a family test for all new government policies.\u00a0 So all policies would be placed up against a test to say does this strengthen or weaken the family.\u00a0 And when we saw that we sent a letter to the prime minister to thank him and his government for taking that step.<\/p>\n

In other instances, for example with same sex marriage, we did not agree with the policy that was being introduced, so in that instance we sent a formal letter to those who were sponsoring and driving that forward, and in doing so we joined with many other religious groups.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Are Human Rights generally respected by the Government?<\/h2>\n

Generally yes.<\/p>\n

Is state intervention in individual life at the right level?<\/h2>\n

I think that\u2019s a tough question.\u00a0 The reason is I think that governments often do not know where that line really lies, and so acting as a government collectively I think they can often be infringing on religious freedom when they are not intending to do so.\u00a0 An example of that can be, and this doesn\u2019t effect our church, but people who are wanting to wear their religious insignia public.\u00a0 Wearing a cross as part of a uniform.\u00a0 I think that that a sensitive area for governments to act on and they just need to be careful.\u00a0 But I think that generally compared to many other countries our political leaders are more respectful of those things.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

When should state intervene in relation to religious freedom and expression?<\/h2>\n

I remember as a young boy, in our church we have something called a family home evening where we gather together and share positive experiences, we have faith promoting messages, we spend nice time together.\u00a0 And I can remember a message in one of those fam home evenings that my mother shared and it was a very simple thing.\u00a0 But the words when something like this\u2026..my right to punch you on your nose ends where your nose begins.\u00a0 I\u2019ve always reflected on that.\u00a0 That\u2019s the important thing to understand.\u00a0 As soon as someone feels that their rights are being breached, that their ability to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience, as soon as that point stops I think that careful consideration needs to take place.\u00a0 I also recognise that if that person\u2019s personal outlook can have a detrimental impact on other people then it may be appropriate to say that your following what you wish to do can have a detrimental effect on other people so we need to consider\u00a0 that with you.\u00a0 That\u2019s a very roundabout way of answering it.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is living in a democracy a good thing?\u00a0 Does it make it easier to practise your faith?<\/h2>\n

Yes, I think democracy is the most suitable way of being able to follow a religion.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Does your faith mean that you feel that you have a duty to vote?<\/h2>\n

Yes, absolutely.\u00a0 And not just to vote but to take an interest in the political discussions and the topics and the people standing.\u00a0 One thing our church does is that it does encourage our members to get involved in the political process.\u00a0 So there are many church members involved in playing a part in the process. But every time there is an election we are encouraged to find out about the candidates and the issues and make sure that we vote, but we are never told what to do.\u00a0 Because we\u2019ve got the things going on in the States right now I can read you an example of the kind of letter that\u2019s read out.\u00a0 This is a letter relating distinctly to the elections in the USA, this would have been read in every single church meeting, the main worship service.\u00a0 I\u2019ll just read it out to you, it says:<\/p>\n

As citizens we have the privilege and duty of electing office holders and influencing public policy, participation in the process affects our communities and nation today and in the future.\u00a0 We urge Latter Day Saints to be active citizens by registering and then regularly exercising their right to vote.\u00a0 So engage in the political process -we also urge you to spend the time needed to become informed of the issues and candidates you will be considering as you vote, along with the options available to you through the internet, debates and other sources.\u00a0 The church occasionally posts information about particular moral issues on which it has taken a position, at www.mormonnewsroom.org<\/a>.\u00a0 And again the distinction between-there is never any approval or recommendation of any candidates or parties, but issues sometimes, there\u2019s a particular focus on.\u00a0 LDS as citizens are to seek out and uphold leaders who are wise, good and honest.\u00a0 Principles compatible with the Gospel may be found in various political parties and candidates.\u00a0 While the church affirms its institutional neutrality regarding political parties and candidates, members should fully participate in the process.\u00a0 The church also affirms its constitutional right of expression on political and social issues.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m not allowed to give you a copy of it, but you\u2019ve got the content and the gist.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is it good or bad that the legislature has the final say in making law?\u00a0 Would you like to see judges being given the power to strike down legislation?<\/h2>\n

Well, I think that\u2019s a difficult question for me to answer.\u00a0 In the UK we do have the H of L that acts in a way to try and reality check to get the Commons to reconsider things.\u00a0 But the same sex marriage legislation that was passed I think is an example where there can be no question about the importance of treating people equally and respectfully, but same sex marriage in our view, and in my view, took that a little further.\u00a0 And the churches, not just our church but the churches were given protection against being forced to perform these marriages.\u00a0 That seemed to a recognition of the government to say that while this is legal and this has to be put into place, we will not enforce that upon faith communities.\u00a0 And I think while there is that recognition and appreciation, that perhaps highlights the kind of situation you\u2019re indicating in other countries.\u00a0 Time will tell if the safeguards around same sex marriage are sufficient, I don\u2019t think we know today, in 20 years time we will have a chat and I\u2019ll tell you.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is majoritarian democracy a problem for minorities? Are there barriers to participation for some groups?<\/h2>\n

I think in the UK it is very good at seeking out and understanding the needs and issues of minorities, I think we\u2019re pretty good at that.\u00a0 And I think that\u2019s one of the reasons that as a country we are more tolerant, because effort is made to really reach out to and seek to understand the minority groups.<\/p>\n

We do not really see ourselves as a minority because we regard ourselves as Christians, and so Christians are not minorities.\u00a0 I think there are certain aspects where our views are different to some of the mainstream Christianity groups.\u00a0 But I think we\u2019re listened to and we get that opportunity to engage as we need to.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

The membership of the House of Lords is unelected, is that a problem in your view?<\/h2>\n

I don\u2019t think that\u2019s something I should comment on churchwise, as a representative of the church.\u00a0 Frankly, I think that there has already been a lot of change within the H of L, and the make up we have of the Lords today compared to 20 years ago is much more representative of understanding the UK and understanding the application of laws etc, and I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll be further changes made in the future.<\/p>\n

How do you feel about the presence of Church of England bishops in the House of Lords?<\/h2>\n

I think there is certainly a role of faith groups in contributing to government policy and considering the impact on policy on faith groups.\u00a0 I\u2019m not sure that they need to have a formal place or seat in government, as they do in H of L today, but I think that the input of faith leaders should be sought.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

These bishops claim to speak on behalf of all faith groups, how do you feel about this?<\/h2>\n

That\u2019s a loaded question, again I think that I can understand what they say and how they will reflect the fact that they are representing people of all faith.\u00a0 But I think that they can only do that if they have good connections, communication and understanding of people of all faith, and I\u2019m not sure that if you were to ask people of many other denominations whether they would feel that their views and concerns and issues are understood by these representatives and therefore reflected by them.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do public authorities respect the will of Parliament expressed in legislation?<\/h2>\n

I think there is a genuine attempt and effort to represent and I think it\u2019s up to members of faith communities to get engaged in the political process, I really do.\u00a0 I think quite often large groups in society isolate themselves from the political process, and say we can\u2019t effect that, they don\u2019t represent us, and I think it\u2019s up to the faith communities to get engaged in the political process, to meet with the political leaders and say here are our views.\u00a0 Here is where you\u2019re not representing us or reflecting us.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting that this event I was sharing with you in London next month, the family values award, one of the archbishops is going to be there at the lunch.\u00a0 Canterbury?<\/strong>\u00a0 <\/em>No, no Southwark.\u00a0\u00a0 We invited the archbishop of Canterbury and his office has expressed that he is too busy to do so right now.\u00a0 We certainly seek to reach out to others to help them understand a little bit more about our faith, our community and the things that are important to us and the contributions we make.\u00a0 And so I think that in government as a whole it\u2019s important for all groups who want to have that kind of engagement to reach out and make that effort on their own part.\u00a0 Otherwise they\u2019ve no complaint.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

What do you think about the devolved assemblies in Wales and Scotland?\u00a0 Have these been positive for our society?<\/h2>\n

Again, I can\u2019t answer that on behalf of the Church.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Importantly, we are not claiming you are speaking on behalf of the Church\u2026<\/h2>\n

I mean personally, again I\u2019m a great believer in responsibility being as close to representation as you can and that\u2019s why I think the Scottish parliament in some respects is appropriate for issues which only affect Scotland.\u00a0 So why have people in the south of England inputting on and making decisions on things that only affect people in the north of Scotland.\u00a0 And I think that\u2019s one of the areas within the EU that\u2019s important, that we get that balance correct with the people who have the greatest representation and understanding should be the ones making the decisions.<\/p>\n

What does your faith teach about people with power and the responsibilities this brings?<\/h2>\n

I think there\u2019s a couple of points on there.\u00a0 One of the things we have are Articles of Faith, which were 13 very brief statements that were written a long time ago.\u00a0 And they give a think a clear indication of some of our beliefs and I\u2019ll send you a copy of those so you\u2019ve got it.\u00a0 But the second article of faith says that we believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam\u2019s transgression.\u00a0 And the principle behind that is that people are accountable for their own decisions and choices and actions. And so that when we look at people in political power, with power comes responsibility and therefore we look that people who take on positions of power or responsibility should be accountable for the actions they take there.\u00a0 And so when we elect someone to an office we believe they should be accountable for carrying out their duty and responsibility for that time.\u00a0 Some of that accountability will happen in this life but some of that accounting will happen in the life after and God will judge that.<\/strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is the Church of the LDS appropriately\/proportionally represented in public life?<\/h2>\n

I think that many of the principles and values that members of our church have, have a far reaching influence and could have a positive impact. That in the UK we probably are quite well represented for our size.\u00a0 We have 2 MPs currently serving, we have no members in H of L.\u00a0 We have a member of the European Parliament.\u00a0 We had a member of the Scottish Parliament who has sadly passed away a couple of years ago, we have another 2 parliamentary candidates for the next election, in addition to the 2 who will be standing.\u00a0 We have more members of the European parliament standing, so I think we have a number of people playing those roles.\u00a0 But one of those things which is very clear is that when they are in those kind of positions, they are MPs first who happen to members of the LDS church, they are not LDS who happen to be MPs.\u00a0 And I think that\u2019s very clear we don\u2019t push people and say you should go and stand for election, you should go and do this, that\u2019s their own choice of vocation that they want to follow.\u00a0 But I think in terms of those areas, there is no institutional barrier which prevents members of our church getting into those roles, and I would like to see a day when some of those roles that are appointed, like the judiciary and H of L etc, that members of our church may be again identified for the role they play in the community in order to fill those positions.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is there enough distance between legislature and judiciary?<\/h2>\n

I\u2019m not sure I can make much comment on that.\u00a0 One thing I will say, is it Paul Coleridge who was a High Court judge and he just retired, earlier this year, he set up a group called the marriage foundation, specifically aimed at supporting and encouraging the institution of marriage and helping families to be strengthened and stay together.\u00a0 And he felt that there was reaching a point where he could not carry on campaigning and being a beacon for that and be a part of the judiciary and that is why he retired\u2026in order to do this.\u00a0 And so I think that might be an area to consider or look into, was that because he was feeling pressure from his bosses in terms of the judiciary or was it because quite literally because he was campaigning actively on this area which would have an influence on government policy that that was not conducive with remaining objective.\u00a0 So I think that would be a good case study.\u00a0 But I don\u2019t feel in a position that I can comment on that.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

How do you feel that the exercise of power should be regulated?<\/h2>\n

Again, going back to that first principle, I would like to see people held accountable, and that that accountability should be made to the public who put them in place, the electorate, as much openness of decisions, people taking responsibility for the decisions and actions made, that people should be held accountable and be open with decisions and choices they make.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

How does your group challenge decisions it sees as problematic?<\/h2>\n

So if there were particular moral issues that the church feels strongly about we will make formal representation on those, those are fairly select and when we do so it\u2019s done with great care, and often we will join with other faith communities in making those kind of representations.\u00a0 But I think one of the things that\u2019s important about our church, is that we believe deeply in people\u2019s ability to make their own choices.\u00a0 So Joseph Smith who was the first president of our church, he made a very clear comment, I\u2019m known as being willing to die to protect the faith of another Mormon, but I would also be just as willing to die to protect the faith of Methodist, or a Catholic or a Baptist.\u00a0 So that inherent principle in our mind that people should have the right to worship the way they wish to worship, or not to worship at all\u00a0 is very, very important to us.\u00a0 And that is one of the key moral issues that as a church we will always seek to protect, the freedom of religious belief and faith.\u00a0 And you\u2019ve seen that with Cole Durham and stuff\u2026..that\u2019s important to us.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do public authorities understand the needs of LDS?<\/h2>\n

Again, I think the responsibility of them understanding our needs is up to us to express those needs.\u00a0 I\u2019m a great believer that we can\u2019t turn around and expect others to know of our needs we have to be the ones to go out there and help people understand. \u00a0And my experience when we reach out to organisations and share our needs they are so respectful and appreciative.\u00a0 There are 3 main thrusts of community engagement that the church is involved with in the UK.\u00a0 The first one is blood donation, the church is one of the largest organisations involved in donating blood.\u00a0 We give our, like that this meeting house here, meeting houses through the UK we allow the NHS blood and transfusion service to come in use it free of charge, all of our facilities, members of our church and members of the community come in and donate blood.\u00a0 The NHS BT are so appreciative and respectful of that engagement. The second is the poppy appeal, though that was just completed, the Royal British Legion, throughout the country members of our church are actively engaged in carrying out the poppy appeal.\u00a0 Part of the diversity of our church with both of these\u2026..these organisations love the fact that we have young people and people from different ethnic backgrounds.\u00a0 So we have young, black female teenagers shaking poppy appeal cans in south London, they don\u2019t get that anywhere else but they get that from us.\u00a0 And then the third one is what we call Mormon helping hands.\u00a0 In all of those areas, those institutions, the councils, the mayors the MPs, they love our engagement and are very appreciative of that.\u00a0 These things are ways in which we can show to these different groups, here\u2019s who we are, here\u2019s what we want to do, it\u2019s not up to them to seek us out, it\u2019s up to us to help them understand how we are, what our interests and needs are.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is it important to act within state law?<\/h2>\n

I think it\u2019s entirely important for me to live within in law.\u00a0 As a church we emphasise that, another article of faith says we believe in being subject to kings, rulers, presidents and magistrates and in honouring and sustaining the law.\u00a0 So we are and seek to be law abiding citizens and I don\u2019t know of the instances of the circumstances that might lead to a breaching of that law, I can\u2019t picture what those might.\u00a0 We encourage our members to be law abiding citizens.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do you feel that you have a duty to speak out against Injustices affecting third parties?<\/h2>\n

Yes, again as Christians we follow Christ and his teachings to care for the poor and the needy and the vulnerable.\u00a0 He spoke out for those who were vulnerable and as a church we should collectively and individually seek to do so also.\u00a0 And again I think our engagement in international religious freedom effort is an outcome of that.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is the Rule of Law applied equally? Do some groups experience prejudicial or preferential treatment?<\/h2>\n

I\u2019m not aware.\u00a0 I can\u2019t answer that.\u00a0 I would say if I were aware of and felt that there was clear prejudicial action then it would be up to me to stand up against that.\u00a0 Again, the only time where we are treated or perceived differently are because we\u2019ve not stood up and helped people understand about us.\u00a0 I think once we make our opinions and views known and clear, people utterly respect them. Again, I\u2019ll give you a little example, with the blood donation that we do in all of our meeting houses.\u00a0 The NHS BT when they will come to, if they are using a school hall, they will serve tea and coffee to people who come and donate blood.\u00a0 In our church we don\u2019t drink tea or coffee and so that was causing a little challenge, where they wanted to serve tea and coffee and we were saying we don\u2019t do that, so we prefer that not to happen in our chapels.\u00a0 And they just say that\u2019s fine, water and orange okay?\u00a0 And we said perfect, even hot chocolate probably okay, so again when they understood our outlook they were entirely accepting and took that on board.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

How do you feel about the increase in police powers over recent years?<\/h2>\n

That\u2019s a very political question.\u00a0 Again as a Church I don\u2019t think we\u2019d have a view on that.\u00a0 Individually, I think people should be treated the same.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Are there any legal rules currently impinging on your life\/faith?<\/h2>\n

Nothing.\u00a0 The legal framework has certainly not had a detrimental effect.\u00a0 I have not seen any negative on my ability to worship that the legal system has had.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Would you have concluding remarks?<\/h2>\n

Again, I think going back to that inherent responsibility to look after other people, as Christ looked after the poor and the needy, I think our responsibility is too\u2026so therefore that\u2019s why international religious freedom is as important as UK religious freedom. I think that because we have the constitutional law here, because we have so many good judges and academics, I think there is an onus on us to reach out and help other minority groups in other countries who don\u2019t have the same protection that we have here.\u00a0 I know you\u2019re familiar with Cole Durham\u2019s work, but the church is also a stakeholder with the all party parliamentary group on religious freedom.\u00a0 And we seek to play an active role there, we seek to reach out to other minority faith communities and work with them to find ways of promoting items on our agenda that we believe to be important to our faith too.\u00a0 And generally people respond very well to our including them in that.<\/p>\n

\n

Elder Clifford Herbertson is an Area Seventy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. \u00a0His responsibilities cover Europe, and he has specific stewardship for the Church in Scotland, Ireland and Southern England. \u00a0<\/p>\n

The Church has no paid clergy and professionally he is a Corporate Strategy Consultant.<\/p>\n

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Danny Batth<\/h2><\/div><\/div><\/a><\/div>
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Contact Us<\/h4>\n

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+44 (0) 161 306 6000<\/p>\n

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The University of Manchester
Oxford Rd
Manchester
M13 9PL
UK<\/a><\/p>\n

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