{"id":2212,"date":"2017-07-13T15:31:37","date_gmt":"2017-07-13T14:31:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/sites.manchester.ac.uk\/religion-law-and-the-constitution\/?p=2212"},"modified":"2025-12-08T16:17:51","modified_gmt":"2025-12-08T16:17:51","slug":"the-reverend-john-chalmers-qhc","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/sites.manchester.ac.uk\/religion-law-and-the-constitution\/2017\/07\/13\/the-reverend-john-chalmers-qhc\/","title":{"rendered":"The Reverend John Chalmers QHC"},"content":{"rendered":"

[et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ admin_label=”section” fullwidth=”on” next_background_color=”#000000″ global_module=”322″][et_pb_fullwidth_menu global_parent=”322″ _builder_version=”3.17.6″ menu_id=”8″ submenu_direction=”downwards” fullwidth_menu=”off” background_layout=”dark” module_class=”main-navigation” \/][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ fullwidth=”off” specialty=”on” prev_background_color=”#000000″ next_background_color=”#1d1d1d”][et_pb_column type=”2_3″ specialty_columns=”2″][et_pb_row_inner locked=”off”][et_pb_column_inner type=”4_4″ saved_specialty_column_type=”2_3″][et_pb_post_title _builder_version=”3.17.6″ featured_placement=”above” locked=”on” parent_locked=”off” date_format=”j M Y” \/][et_pb_text _builder_version=”3.17.6″ background_layout=”light” parent_locked=”off”]<\/p>\n

\"JohnHow would you describe your personal beliefs and identity in relation to religion?<\/h2>\n

I would certainly describe it as Presbyterian and as belonging to the national Church of Scotland.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t brought up in in the Church of Scotland but I now\u00a0understand more about what it means to be a national church by constitution.\u00a0 My parents were more Non-Conformist than and as they moved from location to location they simply looked for a church that they regarded as lively enough and became part of its fellowship.\u00a0 And that, by and by, when I was about 8 or 9 took me into a Church of Scotland congregation and from there settled within it.\u00a0 And I suppose I\u2019ve pretty well moved through the structures of the Church of Scotland, becoming a member as a teenager,at university taking up a call to the ministry and entering the vocation, of ministry, and never thought for a moment that I would be anywhere else than the Church of Scotland.<\/p>\n

Would you say that GB\/Scotland was an equal and tolerant society, especially in relation to HR?<\/h2>\n

There\u2019s undoubtedly a history of\u00a0 discrimination for instance in some areas of employment, where companies would rather employ people from the Protestant tradition or people from the Catholic tradition, and that\u2019s stronger in some parts of the country than in others, and we\u2019re still doing quite a lot of work on what we would describe as anti-Sectarian research and development.\u00a0 And the Church of Scotland is involved in that, and the most recent piece of research, actually unearthed some of the more hidden aspects of that kind of sectarian view of the world, for instance in Edinburgh where in polite society, it\u2019s not so obvious.There was for instance in some law firms the exclusion of Catholic employees or in some of the gentleman\u2019s clubs, it look a long time before they entertained membership from Catholics.\u00a0 But it would have to be said that now we\u2019re getting on top of that, but it\u2019s not completely gone. I have heard that even one of the \u00a0big employers, not far from here, who to make life easier, that while they\u2019re a mixed employer they tend not to mix the employees, so they to have a shift that of Catholic workers and a shift that of Protestant workers.\u00a0 So in 2015,there is still a little bit of that, it\u2019s isolated now, but it\u2019s around.\u00a0 Janette\u2019s right to say that a lot of it has been driven by football loyalty rather than religious loyalty.\u00a0 The great football teams of Scotland – Rangers and Celtic, are openly Protestant or Catholic in nature, and the support in the songs they sing and in the historic roots they have.<\/p>\n

There are no doubt what some people believe there are privileges, that come with being the Church of Scotland,\u00a0 for instance we have the right to representation on local education committees, and other denominations and the Secular Society see that as a privilege too much, we play down the idea of it being a privilege and play up the idea of it being part of representative democracy, and we are the biggest player and we earn a right to be there. Similarly we have what some people would call the privilege to be present in prisons, appoint chaplains\u00a0 in health care and in spiritual care and we are the predominant player.\u00a0 But again, we say we earn our place because of the social good that is provided by us and by our voluntary force.\u00a0 If you\u2019re asking me what is the biggest problem that being Presbyterian or Presbyterianism faces within the church itself it is that we are becoming (by the day) more and more congregational in the way in which we act and yet we take our vows of loyalty to courts of the church and to play our part in them.<\/p>\n

But we subscribe to a set of constitutional statements, we subscribe to, amend and enact laws which are recognised as laws within the legal jurisdiction of the church and then people think they can ignore then because they don\u2019t apply to them.\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Are there any ways in which the Church of Scotland has a practical influence on HR?<\/h2>\n

When you drill right down to where we\u2019ve got a Poverty Truth Commission within the\u00a0Priority Areas. We\u2019ve identified the 59 poorest parishes in Scotland by all the indicators, by all the demographical survey work that has been done through the census, and we have decided that we need to double our investment in these places over and above our investment in other parts of our work. We can\u2019t abandon the poor, the Gospel priority is to the poor and so every single council of the church, every single committee of the church is supposed to see the world through the lens of how their work makes a difference to the life of the poor\u2026so when you drill right down to what is happening on the ground we have seen and still see human trafficking on the streets of Glasgow, children being sold, families being sold into prostitution and so forth, and the complete abuse of human rights in areas of our country where actually the Rule of Law has pretty well broken down and people don\u2019t have access to the protection of the law and the law doesn\u2019t have access to enforce the law because society is happy to see it contained within certain isolated communities.\u00a0 As long as it doesn\u2019t spill over into some of the comfortable suburbs and we collude to isolate these areas and in my year as Moderator I\u2019ve been trying to highlight this in\u00a0 the areas where I\u2019ve seen it first hand. But these are very difficult to pin down and address nonetheless we\u2019ve published reports on human trafficking and the abuse of human rights on our doorstep – never mind what we see across the world.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do you think that public authorities respect HRs?<\/h2>\n

Migration is the other thing which has caused unrest and difficulty sometimes in applying fairly some of the principles of human rights.\u00a0 There\u2019s a force that\u2019s in human nature that says these people are taking our jobs or these people are taking our houses and you\u2019re not quite sure what\u2019s happening a layer beneath.<\/p>\n

Do public authorities get the balance between freedom and protection right when it comes to intervening in the lives of citizens?<\/h2>\n

There\u2019s a feeling within some quarters that religious tolerance doesn\u2019t extend to Christianity, (I\u2019m not subscribing to that [view]), but David Cameron [the Prime Minister] has sometimes described Britain as a Christian country, but a Christian country that tolerates the presence of people of other faiths \u2013 he isn\u2019t ashamed to describe Britain as Christian and has his Easter reception at Downing Street for church leaders and then he has all faith leaders at other times and in other places and it seems to some people that there\u2019s an unusual amount of criticism of Christianity or of the promotion of Christianity while \u00a0everyone is more guarded in relation to what they might want to say publically about the practice of Islam or any other faith.\u00a0 The Paris killings for instance, where Charlie Hedbo could publish as many critical cartoons as it liked of the Pope or of other Christian figures, without there being any likely threats of annihilation and so when you analyse that mix you do find people within the Christian tradition saying, \u201cwhy is it that you get away with saying what you like about Jesus and you have to be guarded about Mohammed – so it\u2019s a strange one.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

When should public authorities intervene in the expression of religious beliefs?<\/h2>\n

You cannot have violent threat outside an abortion clinic just because somebody is running a perfectly legal operation, so there are places where it\u2019s \u201cthis far and no further\u201d.\u00a0 I couldn\u2019t answer the question as to whether authorities intervene at the right level and at the right time.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is living in a Parliamentary democracy a positive thing?\u00a0 Is there is any kind of government which you would prefer?<\/h2>\n

Benign dictatorship with me in charge! [tongue in cheek!]<\/p>\n

Democracy isn\u2019t about having elections, democracy is what happens between elections really\u2026.and I suppose the biggest issue for most people is whether you\u2019ve got access to the systems – that you can influence them – that you can converse them\u2026.that you\u2019re consulted when changes are in the offing.\u00a0 I would like to think if I give them [politicians] the benefit of the doubt the Scottish Parliament has been quite good at that [consultation].\u00a0 We\u2019ve had very good cooperation with the civil servants, particularly and especially for instance around changes in the marriage law, they\u2019ve worked with us on it and we\u2019ve no reason therefore to say that any other form of government would have made that any better or any easier, I think it\u2019s been good.\u00a0 I think there\u2019s room for improvement, I don\u2019t think that our committee system in the Scottish Parliament has worked as well as it should\u2026.nor has it been as democratic as it should be.\u00a0 Too much political party influence over the memberships and so on.<\/p>\n

They need a revising chamber, some of the law making processes have been weak.\u00a0 Probably good civil servants have saved their bacon more than once.<\/p>\n

Do your beliefs mean that you feel an obligation to vote?<\/h2>\n

Yes,\u00a0I think that it\u2019s one of those sort of things that whether we know it or not is kind of theologically embedded in the civic duty part of the way in which Church and State are separate but not separate, they depend on one another and hold one another to account in all sorts of ways.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is it a good or a bad thing that Parliament has the final say in making and changing law?\u00a0 Would you like to see judges empowered to strike down legislation?<\/h2>\n

Yes, and it could be achieved.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is majoritarian democracy a problem for minority groups?\u00a0 Are there some sections of society which face barriers to participation?<\/h2>\n

I think that the UK should be looking to (let\u2019s not call it an experiment) the way in which the Scottish Parliament is elected.\u00a0 I\u2019m not a fan of first past the post, it leaves people like me, who\u2019ve voted all their lives for parties that never get elected\u2026..because I\u2019m more of a sort of Liberal Democratic type of person\u2026..and so and for people who can often see both sides of an argument, it\u2019s a frustration to always be asked to determine the future of a nation on one side or the other of a philosophical political divide, when things that we deal with nowadays in public life are much more complex than that, and I\u2019d like to see complexity reflected in the way in which we\u2019re represented in Parliament.\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

How do you feel about the presence of Church of England bishops in Westminster?<\/h2>\n

I think that we\u2019ve got to accept what [history has given us] and we start from where we are.\u00a0 And I think that we actually depend on them in some ways to represent our religious and philosophical position and we have a good relationship with the Church of England.\u00a0 But I think that given what I\u2019ve already said about complexity and needing complex representation to deal with the complexity of modern life, it\u2019s OK. But we\u2019re not where I would start if I was starting again!\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

If Church of Scotland is established, would you like to see it represented in Parliament in the same way as the other established church?<\/h2>\n

Again in my Liberal Democratic way of seeing the world, I\u2019d say and what about the rest?\u00a0 And you know ideally I\u2019d like to see some sort of second chamber that was representative of different areas of expertise and different groups across the country.\u00a0 Not just a place where you recycled old politicians\u2026that know the ropes.\u00a0 I think one of the… (this is to digress) but I think that one of gravest errors that Scotland made when it established its new Parliament was that it decided to establish it around so called full time politicians, there was an opportunity at the time to establish a one hundred day parliament and to have those who run the country be those who ran businesses or ran hospitals or ran charities,. People who had proper jobs and knew how to manage things and make things happen and represent the nation in a different way in its democratic structures and a second chamber that was representative in that way of such wide ranging expertise including religious representation is the kind of chamber I\u2019d like to see.<\/p>\n

Do public authorities try to respect the will of Parliament as expressed through legislation?<\/h2>\n

Possibly the opposite in some ways, some fairly radical changes in law where people said, \u201cyou\u2019ll never enforce that\u201d\u2026for instance smoking in public places and the new alcohol limit, I think that\u2019s dramatically changed the way in which people are viewing [everyday life such as] their night out at the restaurant.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

How do you feel about the EU and Devolved institutions?<\/h2>\n

I know when we talk about church law which we want to implement I could come up with a number of laws that I would like to see, and that the majority of people in the church would like to see on the statue books, but we know that they\u2019re not implementable that it\u2019s simple not possible to police them and there does seem to be a lot of \u201cunpolicable\u201dlaw coming out of the EU.\u00a0 And as you travel around you see it being ignored in some parts of Europe and applied in others.\u00a0 And we seem to apply it quite vigorously.<\/p>\n

I can buy goat\u2019s cheese in a French market that probably wouldn\u2019t pass any of the European guidelines but my Lanark Blue is banned because it doesn\u2019t meet EU standards.<\/p>\n

Do you think that Scotland is more pro-EU than England?<\/h2>\n

The face of politics has changed radically in the last five years or so, there\u2019s now a third alternative around or even a fourth alternative, in Scotland that\u2019s the SNP and they\u2019ve taken up a particular political position with a view to Europe but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s one that was necessarily reflected in the mind of the people.\u00a0 And in England it\u2019s UKIP, which is a one issue party which has taken up the voice of those who think that Europe is to blame for everything.\u00a0 And so I think if you cleared away some of the political noise my guess is that there are as many Scots ambivalent about Europe as there are in England, or as many that are in support of it as there are in England.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

What does your faith teach about people who exercise power?\u00a0 How should they be held accountable?<\/h2>\n

I had an extraordinary experience in Nigeria last week, where the state Governor turned up at church and the Moderator of the East Central synod asked me to pray for the Governor and for success in the election.\u00a0 And he had cornered me in front of a congregation of a 1000 people, it wasn\u2019t on the order of service that I was to do this.\u00a0 I knew that in all conscience, (and everything which I had learned theologically about the way in which Church and State remain separate) that I wasn\u2019t going to pray for his success in the election, but for humility for those who have great power, honesty for those who handle great resources, integrity and wisdom for those who will be voting.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think he liked the prayer but that is what he got. \u00a0What we expect of people in public office is that they have integrity, are collaborative and listen to the people.\u00a0 And we will support them with our prayer and commitment to the democratic process.\u00a0 But we wouldn\u2019t expect to hold them to account in any other way.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do you think that your group is appropriately and proportionately represented in public life?<\/h2>\n

I think that the proportion has changed.\u00a0 We now live in the age of the career politician.\u00a0\u00a0 As a result of that it has changed and there are fewer people [who operate] from any faith perspective, because they are coming from a secular understanding of the world, a political arena which is meant to be more and more separate from any of the institutions which effect modern life.<\/p>\n

Would you say that there is enough distance between the judiciary and politicians?<\/h2>\n

There is sufficient distance, but Scotland is a small country and there are places where people meet.\u00a0 If you are a member of certain clubs you will find these politicians and others mingling, and sometimes I think that there is more business done in the \u201csmoke filled rooms\u201d of these clubs than is prudent or safe.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

What checks and balances should we have on the power of the government and Parliament?<\/h2>\n

The free press is terribly important, no democratic society operates well without it.\u00a0 In the heyday of newspapers, there was quite a spread of editorial view, which held each side to account, but now that newspapers are almost a thing of the past – and the blogosphere and an online news stream has changed the way in which politics are influenced, the jury is out on how that will work out over the longer hall.\u00a0 But you could also argue that in the old days when Lord Beaverbrook (newspaper proprietors in general) had so much influence, that wasn\u2019t very healthy either. But at least we knew then how it worked, now we don\u2019t.<\/p>\n

How does the Church of Scotland seek to challenge decisions in public life which it sees as problematic?<\/h2>\n

We will make representations to Parliamentary Committees for instance.\u00a0 This week the Assisted Suicide Bill is rumbling its way through the system in Scotland, we gave evidence against it (as did the other churches).\u00a0 To get the authority to do that we take a report to the General Assembly.\u00a0 Then we will do what we can to lobby and encourage our members to write to MPs and MSPs.\u00a0 And sometimes an issue will crop up half-way through a year, which we didn\u2019t deliberate on at a General Assembly, but if we can trace the trajectory which a General Assembly would have taken, if given the opportunity, then a Council can stick its neck out and address the issue.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do you think that public authorities have a good understanding of the needs of Christians, and meet them appropriately?<\/h2>\n

It is hard for us to live with the way things are now because they weren\u2019t that way once.\u00a0 We [The Church of Scotland] established a school in every parish, it was the Church of Scotland that was responsible what he have now and it\u2019s hard to see ourselves being more and more marginalised in an institutional sphere where we were instrumental in its origins.\u00a0 But it is probably right that as society matures and becomes more tolerant and inclusive.\u00a0 We probably have a lot of people who don\u2019t feel that, so we have got to be careful, in a broad church, about what we say.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is it important for you personally to always act within secular law?<\/h2>\n

Successive Moderators of the General Assembly, not all but a few, have been arrested protesting about Trident and have been taken off and charged by the police.\u00a0 By and large the membership of our church would say good on you for bringing attention to what we think is morally wrong.\u00a0 So there are extremes where people would lie down in front of the tanks and feel that it was right to defy the law.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Are there any active issues where the Church of Scotland is campaigning for legal change?<\/h2>\n

We\u2019ve had an extraordinary episode of discussion over same sex marriage, which we opposed with other faith groups and if you had held a referendum on this matter the government probably \u00a0wouldn\u2019t have got a majority.\u00a0 So what we had to do was negotiate strongly to protect those who, in all conscience, refuse to carry out these ceremonies.\u00a0 There would be amongst our membership people who would want to campaign to reverse this decision, but the Church of Scotland would never entertain going down that road.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do your beliefs require you to speak out against injustices effecting third parties?<\/h2>\n

Yes!\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do you think that the Rule of Law is applied equally?\u00a0 Do some groups receive preferential or prejudicial treatment?<\/h2>\n

I suspect that there are more cases than we know about.\u00a0 I was very shocked by the story about sex abuse in Bradford came about, and it was obvious that the police had been turning a blind eye, and weren\u2019t prepared to listen to these girls from poor background.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think that Scotland is any different, there will be these pockets of injustice.<\/p>\n

There are migrant groups that are at the very bottom of the pile.\u00a0 The mix in a place like Govanhill in Glasgow, densely populated, the most multi-ethnic part of Scotland whereI think that there are 3000 Romany people living there (out of 5000 in Scotland).\u00a0 Some of them living 15 to a room, exploited by all of the other ethnic groups, they are the ones who will work for \u00a31.95 an hour at the car washes.\u00a0 They are the lowest of the low and not even on the ladder.\u00a0 And the protection of the law just doesn\u2019t belong to them.\u00a0 Some of the streets in these places are run by gang masters not the police. We do better than most countries when it comes to the Rule of Law, but we can\u2019t pretend that it is perfect.<\/p>\n

How do you feel about the gradual increase in police powers over the past 15 years?<\/h2>\n

I think that it is less prevalent in Scotland as we are less multi-ethnic than the rest of Britain.\u00a0 There are places in our big cities where there are issues, but it is not widespread.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Are there any legal rules which you find restrictive?<\/h2>\n

I am trying to think of bigger things\u2026\u2026\u2026.there are some aspects of pension law and taxation that I would like to see change.\u00a0 If we are now a people who are going to have to make serious plans for our future in old age and care, there just aren\u2019t the tax breaks for the kind of investment that requires.\u00a0 I would allow people tax breaks in the last few years of their working life.\u00a0 Since Gordon Brown applied tax on pension funds, there have been a sequence of events that have made it very difficult for people to plan for their future and not be a burden on the State.<\/p>\n

In terms of big law, I think there needs to be a discussion about drugs and illegal substances, because the current law is not doing enough to address the high-end crime behind it.\u00a0 You can tell that I am an old liberal!\u00a0 I wouldn\u2019t say that in the General Assembly.\u00a0 Also there are issues about Constitutional change and the devolution settlement, if we are not going to have another round of talks about breaking up the UK there needs to be another round of discussions about the Constitutional settlement between different parts of the UK.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Is there anything which you would like to add?
<\/strong><\/h2>\n

The thing that is left over for me, is one of the false dichotomies of today is the dialogue between science and religion.\u00a0 There is a pervading sense in some modern institutions of education, the media, the BBC, that you can drip feed the idea that if you are religious you are somehow anti-scientific, or if you are scientific you are someone who believes in the absenceof God.\u00a0 There is an area to have teased out.\u00a0 It is true that theological dogma has to be reframed, because not all of it works with a Darwinian understanding of life.<\/p>\n

\n

Rev John Chalmers was appointed as Principal Clerk to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 2011 \u2013 previously he was the Pastoral Adviser and Associate Secretary of the Ministries Council, responsible for the pastoral care, support and development of Ministers and Deacons throughout the Church.<\/p>\n

John was ordained in 1979 and he first served as Minister of Renton Trinity Parish he then moved to the Edinburgh City Centre Parish of Palmerston Place before going into the Church\u2019s central administration at the end of 1995.<\/p>\n

In 2013 he was appointed a Chaplain to the Queen in Scotland and in 2014-15 he served the Church of Scotland\u00a0 as Moderator of the General Assembly.<\/p>\n

He has wider interests which include having been a member of the Board of the\u00a0National School for the Deaf for more than 20 years and having served as its\u00a0Convener for 8 years. In his spare time his interests are DIY projects, golf, travel\u00a0(especially travel with golf clubs) and beekeeping.<\/p>\n

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Find Us<\/h4>\n

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The University of Manchester
Oxford Rd
Manchester
M13 9PL
UK<\/a><\/p>\n

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Connect With Us<\/h4>\n

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